The Question of Tone – Let’s Settle This

Let’s just get this question of tone out of the way and then we’ll dive into the substance of the call in the next post. A lot of people didn’t like the tone I took with Dave. People have called it bitter, disrespectful, angry, rude, etc. (Of course, many people already had their mind made up about me and this site long before the call. Those are not the people I want to address.) If you are on the fence, or sympathetic to the community here, yet you were turned off by my tone, I want to reassure you of some things.

First, I would like to point out that judging someone’s heart or arguments based solely on their tone of voice or the way they present themselves as a speaker is not a Biblical idea. If we only listened to Christian leaders who were “cool, calm, and collected” or “reasonable” (as some people have called Dave’s tone), then we could not in good conscience listen to Jesus or Paul.

All throughout the Gospels, Jesus repeatedly confronted the honorable, elite Christian leadership of his day. In Matthew 23, Jesus pronounces seven woes on the Pharisees, calls them hypocrites and says things like:

“So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.”

Crack open chapter 23 and read it out loud the way it was meant to be said. Does this sound angry to you? Maybe even rude? Jesus was tearing apart the people most considered to be upstanding, God-fearing, “Christians” of their day.

The Apostle Paul was also a man with passion. In fact, he had a very public confrontation with the Apostle Peter. And (gasp!) he didn’t even go to Peter privately first.

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong… When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all…Galatians 2:11, 14a

The Apostle Paul was also incredibly emotional over the communities of believers that he was a part of. He pleads with them, cries over them, prays for them, labors for them. How could that not come out in his tone?

Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them. It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you! Galatians 4:17-20

See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Gal. 6:11

Not only does Paul get emotional over his brothers and sisters in Christ, he also warns them against smooth talkers (Paul himself was not eloquent or a persuasive speaker). If you were in ancient Israel listening to Paul vs. the smooth talker of his day – who would you believe? Would you be turned off my Paul’s rough emotionalism and taken in by the cunning smooth talker who has an answer for everything?

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Romans 16:17-19

In fact, nearly every time Scripture mentions people with smooth talk or smooth lips it is referring to people that are trying to deceive us: the serpent with Eve, the adulteress in Proverbs, false prophets and teachers.

With persuasive words she led him astray; she seduced him with her smooth talk. Proverbs 7:21

For the record, I am NOT equating myself with Jesus or Paul. Let that be clear. What I am saying is that there is Scriptural precedent for being emotional about your brother’s and sister’s well-being, for harshly confronting any legalism that nullifies the Gospel of Grace, and for NOT judging based on the eloquence of one’s speaking abilities.

Substance, not form, is what’s important. I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM, but if you disagree just because you didn’t like my tone of voice, I believe that is a very poor reason and you could be missing the essence of what I am saying.

75 comments:

Anonymous said…
I don’t think it was just the tone, but the attacking nature of your remarks as well. You are the one who seemed to have her mind already made up that none of Dave’s answers would be true, like when you went after Dave about his rental property when he had already answered that extensively from the emailed question and you yourself admitted your data was from 2008! It really sounded like you refuse to believe that he could be aboveboard. Also, when you called him a liar for saying he never made the wicked sinner remark. You weren’t there, you don’t know what he said. The other person may have misremembered the speaker, the context, they may have misunderstood sarcasm or a joke. You have no way of knowing, so you can’t be sure if he said it or not. I was really upset and offended by those two things in particular because they weren’t really about protecting interns and your rudeness about those points damaged your overall credibility and our position as people who want to help and bring change. You’ve reinforced the idea we are just vindictive and bitter, because that was how you came off and I mostly agree with you! You didn’t follow the guidelines YOU posted on this blog!!!!
Christina said…
RA – Great points and well said! 🙂
LizBR said…
I think that is a very good analysis of your tone, why it had some bite to it, and what our response should be.

To the Anon at 8:31, concerning the liar bit: As RA said on the call, she had two options. She could believe Dave (who has said untruths to her before), and call the woman who shared this fact with her a liar, or she could choose to believe the woman who confided in her.

My guess is that Dave did say this, but has no recollection of it. After all, who remembers every flippant comment they’ve ever made? However, DH sets himself up as the most “honorable” and “statesmanlike” leader that the interns encounter, which means he loses the freedom to make flippant remarks. I don’t think he realizes that when you create a persona for yourself that is entirely about respect/honor/dignity/excellence, you have to give up your right to make flippant and silly comments outside of your close circle of friends and family, because those comments will inevitably be misunderstood, no matter what your intentions.

RA had a choice of who to believe here, and she chose to believe someone who was hurt and upset by Dave’s words, as opposed to believing Dave, who could have easily forgotten that he ever said this.

Now, if everyone doesn’t mind, I’d like to shout something here so that any incoming commenters notice it:

IF YOU WANT TO BE ANONYMOUS ON THIS POST OR OTHERS, PLEASE CHOOSE A FAKE NAME FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY.

I know people have covered it before, but it gets exhausting when there are a million Anons. Just choose Name/URL from the drop down list, and then leave the URL blank.

Pretty pretty please.

You don’t have to say who you are. Call yourself Frankie B or Lulu or JessieMarie. Just choose a name so we can help keep you all straight, okay? Thanks!

Anonymous said…
This is the original Anon, now Julie. There was a 3rd option which is: I don’t know the facts because I wasn’t there, so I refrain from calling anyone a liar. I’m all for righteous anger when we know what we are calling out is evil. But saying someone is financially unscrupulous or a liar without proof in hand is NOT the same. Also, the question about ESOL injuries which was way more important and IS backed by the testimony of many witnesses, got buried because of the other stuff. If you want to show Dave is financially unscrupulous, that’s fine if you have done your homework and have your evidence. In this phone call, like it or not, RA spoke for all of us, as the most recognized member of this group. I didn’t like how it represented our group.
–Julie
Nunquam Honorablus said…
For the record, I didn’t see anything wrong with her tone. She even DROPPED issues when Hasz corrected them (ie: IRS explanation, the acting track in CCM (which Hasz WAS lying about, or was merely uninformed)) and said she’d follow up to make sure had her facts straight, so I don’t see the problem.

So people saying that she already made up in her mind that HE was wrong, kind of have it all wrong.

My two cents.

Anonymous said…
This is the original Anon–Julie. Liz, there was a 3rd option: I wasn’t there, I don’t know what was said, so I refrain from calling anyone a liar. There was a very good question about ESOAL injuries in there that is backed by the testimony of many witnesses but pretty much got buried under the other stuff. I’m all for righteous anger, and I do feel it on behalf of those injured, but let’s make sure we only use it when we know the truth. In Dave’s finances and one conversation he had that we didn’t witness, we don’t have that.
kaye said…
To LizBR – thanks for the tip on how to enter a name! I got confused when I tried to enter my name before, so I just kept posting as anonymous 🙂
Anonymous said…
Sorry I double posted, didn’t think the original comment went through. Julie
dan said…
Personally, I liked RA’s tone on the call.

Dave’s intimidating. There’s no denying that. And because of this persona that Liz described, he’s incredibly unapproachable, whether he likes it or not. Most alumni who went through the HA under Dave’s leadership, even those who were hurt by him, still revere him with something that borders on hero worship. I don’t think this is Dave’s intention (Though who doesn’t want to be respected?), however it is a direct result of the culture he creates around himself.

See, Dave lives in the bubble. And not the “Teen Mania Bubble” (though he lives in that too), but the 30 Rock bubble. The one where everyone around you tells you you’re awesome. Everyone around you tells you you’re changing the world. Everyone’s kissing your…you get the idea.

I’m sure that Dave’s bosses are firm with him from time to time. He works for Ron Luce, after all. But judging from the board’s response, my guess is that there aren’t really that many people keeping Dave’s pride in check. Especially not intern alumni.

RA was speaking up for a community that she loves and respects. She was defending people who have been hurt by Dave. Of course she was emotional. Of course she was angry. I’m actually incredibly thankful for that. That this community has someone who cares about them enough to speak up for them. To thrash a little bit in the temple. To call the Pharisees out on their bs.

Believe it or not, I have incredible amounts of respect for Dave. I differ from some in this community in that I truly do believe his heart and intentions are “above board”. I do. And I believed him when he took responsibility for his actions and apologized on the call. I’m thankful he did that. I think it took some courage and humility.

However, had RA been swayed by this, she would have been letting down this community who believes in her and trusts her as a leader (sorry, RA, I know you hate that word as much as I do). She got emotional and angry when it counts. She spoke for people who could not speak for themselves.

And everybody needs to be confronted “rudely” from time to time. Everyone’s pride needs a little check from time to time. I know mine does. RA’s does. And Dave’s does for sure.

dan said…
PS – I’d like to second Liz’s “anonymous” complaint (not directly at you, Julie). Though mine’s from a slightly different angle.

If you’re going to come on here and flame, whether you’re in the RA community or on the TM Party line, I’d like to suggest you not be anonymous at all. RA has specific reasons why she’s being anonymous, and that’s her business, but if any of you are going to come on here and state some kind of strong opinion, I’d like to suggest that you use your name.

It’s liberating, I promise.

Nunquam Honorablus said…
Do fake names count? :<
JustJ33 said…
that’s what got to me was the fact that RA out right called DH a liar.

that point brings us another point for me, how can you know the stories that you post and personally get are 100% truthful? I know people are truly hurting but hurting people can also be bitter people and they can also stretch the truth to make DH, RL, an TMM look bad and make themselves look more like a victim.

again let me reiterate that I know people are hurting and are finding healing here. I’m just wondering how Do you (RA) test the validity of the stuff you post?

you have to know that some people are really trying to defame TMM at any cost right?

not you of course not saying that!

dan said…
Your fake name counts, Nun. 🙂 Mostly I’m talking about flamers…of the internet variety, of course. If someone’s going to come on and call this community names, that person should probably be brave enough to do so without the veil of anonymity. Likewise, if we’re going to attack back, we shouldn’t do so anonymously. Since you’re always like, awesome, I don’t think anyone thinks twice about your alias.

JustJ33: I see what you’re saying, and you probably agree with Julie that the 3rd option would have been to say “I don’t know what’s true because I wasn’t there.”

But the person (who many of us in the community know) who told this story about Dave is RA’s friend. Someone who confided in her. To say publicly “I don’t know what’s true.” is to tell this person who was hurt “I don’t necessarily believe you.” RA has chosen instead to defend him/her vehemently. Calling Dave a liar in that regard was the right thing to do. RA believes her friend. Dave said that her friend said something untrue. What would you have done?

Actually, don’t answer that. Let me put it to you this way. If my wife walked in the door and told me that a guy at her office had taken advantage of her, I wouldn’t wait, I wouldn’t hesitate. I wouldn’t give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn’t question him, I wouldn’t feel sorry for him and I wouldn’t listen to his side of the story.

I would call 911 and tell them to send an ambulance to his house, then I’d walk out the door and head over there to take care of business.

Because she’s my wife. My best friend. I trust and respect her on a level that far overshadows anyone else. If she told me Dave Hasz took advantage of her, my reaction would be no less severe. I would be so rude and disrespectful to Dave, his head would spin.

Dave would never harm a woman in that way, of course. We know this. But that’s an extreme analogy to illustrate a point. RA’s friend, whom she loves and trusts, told her that Dave hurt him/her with his words. RA struck out at Dave in this friend’s defense. I see nothing wrong with that.

picture perfect said…
Dan,

RIGHT ON!! That’s exactly what I was thinking. Especially the first two paragraphs. I think it took mega courage that had been mounting up for a few months/years now on RA’s part to be able to speak to “the all mighty Hasz” like that.

For me myself, I would probably try to speak out but end up backing down. Not speaking for RA, but I would’ve had to shout to keep my courage up. So her “tone” was actually pretty tame, if you ask me.

But I haven’t gotten to the using my “real name.” I’ll think about that one.

Picture Perfect said…
Dan,
I didn’t realize you posted again. I was commenting on your firt post.
Recovering Alumni said…
Hey Julie,

Good questions all around so let me see if I can address them:

1) How do I know everything I post is true?

Short answer: I don’t know that every single detail is true, but I do know that the overall stories of pain and hurt are true. If they weren’t they wouldn’t resonate with so many people.

Why do I believe that in this particular instance, Dave actually did call my friend a wicked sinner? Well, I have spent countless hours on the phone with this individual processing through her experience with TM. I have actually had the opportunity to meet her in person as well. She has confided in me quite a bit and I sense her genuineness. She is not malicious. If anything, she feels overguilty for any hint of “unforgiveness.” Perhaps she will chime in this post, perhaps not (since she has already taken alot of abuse from TM and its supporters).

Also, let me point out that if Dave would have said, I don’t remember then I would not have taken such a hard line. However, he said:

“That is absolutely not true. Its not true.”

So, given the fact that I intimately know the person who told me this story. Given the fact that it made an impression on her enough to be humiliated in front of a room full of people and subsequently get rid of all her alcohol…Dave didn’t give me any room here to let him off the hook. (And, if anyone cares, I didn’t call him a liar, I said he was lying. 2 different things)

Julie said…
But words are very different from actions because there is much more room for misinterpretations, especially when remembering a past event–you remember emotions more strongly than what was said. I’m not trying to flame RA, I was giving my constrictive criticism that if we want TM to listen and to get through to the hearts and minds of partyliners, that tact was not the best way, since it even bothered some of us who support this community.
Recovering Alumni said…
Also, regarding the financial things.

I actually never accused Dave of financial impropriety. I don’t think its too much to ask for COMPLETE OPEN TRANSPARENCY given the fact that we, the alumni, have raised a crap-load of money for the ministry.

What struck me as odd, was when he acted like he never recieved $80k for his rental properties, when he clearly did. Shady? You decide.

I’m going to to do a whole post on the finances thing, so maybe we can hold off conversation until then?

LizBR said…
RA: I agree with you. I wish Dave would have said, “I don’t remember saying that.” Or even, “I find it highly unlikely that I would have said that.” That would have been a much more realistic statement.

And thank you for not calling him a liar. 🙂 I wanted to be sure to reflect that in my comment above.

As we know from that video on the forum, there is a difference between saying, “This is what you DID,” and, “This is what you ARE.” I think you were definitely in the, “This is what you DID” camp on this one. And people do need their feet held to the fire on stuff like this.

Recovering Alumni said…
Julie,

I totally respect your right to disagree with me. 🙂

layne said…
I am not the individual whom Dave called a “wicked sinner”, but I will attest to having been confronted (as an SA) on several occassions concerning rumors that alcohol (specifically wine) was being consumed by myself and roommates (which, yes, was true). I was told that this was not acceptable behavior (though alcohol was not being consumed in front of interns).

I was not confronted by anyone on the HA staff.

There were no rules for staff or SA’s regarding consumption of alcohol (besides not drinking in front of interns) and no valid reason for the confrontation. The spirit of the confrontation, however, was pretty obvious from the questions that were asked and the attitude in which they were asked; they did not agree with it and thought less of us for doing it.

Again, though, this had nothing to do with HA or Dave H. I bring it up only to point out that, regardless of HA’s stance, there are staff at TM that look down on alcohol consumption and would consider it a sinful practice.

Recovering Alumni said…
And Julie – It sounds like maybe your beef is more with the content of my questions and not the tone?

Don’t worry, we’ll get to content next…thought it will probably take a few posts.

kate said…
JustJ33, to answer you question on the validity of the stories presented here.

When I submitted my story to RA, we had an open dialog regarding not only the story, but other aspects of my life. I think if at any point RA felt that I was being less then truthful my story wouldn’t have made it on to the blog. In addition to that when several anon’s questioned facts in my story RA emailed me of clarification. AND if that doesn’t satisfy you there were several people who knew who I was based on things I stated in may story, some you can see in comments others contacted me via email or facebook.

Based on the first 2 points above I assume that there is a little bit of a vetting process RA goes through before posting a story.

If someone on this blog says that TM has hurt them in some I BELIEVE them, because I was hurt by TM.

Also, IF some one sounds ‘bitter’ or ‘angry’ chalk it up to part of the healing process. Instead of writing someone as bitter, can you offer love and support? I think if you do, you might see that ‘bitterness’ melt in to healing and growth.

Recovering Alumni said…
I’d also like to add that I don’t post anything that doesn’t come to me first hand. I’ve heard many rumors about TM, leadership, etc. If I can’t confirm it from a person who was there, I won’t post it. There is A LOT I haven’t posted.
Julie said…
I can agree to disagree also, RA. And you are right, I was maybe bothered more by content than tone. P.S. I’m also Julie from the forums, and while not a regular poster, I didn’t just appear out of thin air today–I’m a regular reader on the blog and forums. ; )
Anonymous said…
I find it interesting that you use scripture- yet you dont believe in it.. talk about being double minded…
Recovering Alumni said…
Huh? I never said I didn’t believe in Scripture…..?
layne said…
I’m afraid there may be a few (if not a lot) of people who are getting RA and Shannon K. mixed up.
Anonymous said…
Probably…Shannon K is very atheist and she will remind you of it on a constant basis..

There are three sides to every story…

1.) His/Her story
2.) TM/HA/DH story
3.) and the TRUTH

layne said…
Anon 1:52 – Yes, it is commonly observed that what you are say regarding “three sides to every story” is true. I hope that you aren’t inferring that there is never truth to side 1 and 2, though…?
Moriah said…
All sides of the story are subjective to the person telling the story.
There is no absolute objective truth in story telling.

This is a simple concept introduced by post-modernism. There are truths in all sides of the stories, but one has to re-define truth as a relative concept before they can hear those truths.
************************************************************************
Thank you for your voice RA. Thank you for standing up for the wounded. Thank you for being angry in defense of every intern who was ever in danger, abused, belittled, lied to, or mistreated under the leadership of David Hasz. (and all in the name of God)

what a shame it happened, but what a beautiful victory to face it with fierce courage and boldness!!!

(and what a lovely bike ride I had!)

Love,
Moriah

C.R. said…
I support this blog completely and I will stand behind it and its owners actions. If that action is being firm with DH and the entire TM community, let it be. When those actions lead to a good change in the way things are done at HA and HAO, a great victory has been won for the Kingdom of Heaven.
I like brownies said…
RA – I just want to say that my husband and I applaud your courage. I’m a TM grad and my husband is not, but he has dealt with bitterness over seeing the struggles I endured there. He said that you did much better than he (or I, for that matter) would have. Your tone of voice was firm and yes, a little heated, but it was necessary. I am deeply grateful for your boldness.
I like brownies without nuts said…
amen and amen to the last three comments!
dan said…
Julie…just to make sure I was clear, I wasn’t directing my anonymous comment at you. 🙂 You don’t seem to be flaming anyone at all.

Some of the people on the recent call audio thread, though? Wowzers.

Shannon Kish said…
Seriously? How is it that I am not even partaking in a conversation and someone drags my name through mud? It is growing old and wearisome at this point.

I am drained in more ways than I can count because I have had an incredibly stressful week at work. One of the places I used to visit to get some peace and comfort was this blog/forums, but since the conference call, I can’t even do that without having to explain myself, listen to someone else call me a name, get random messages about how hateful I am (despite not saying anything in the first place)

I think I need a break from people altogether.

Recovering Alumni said…
I’m sorry, Shannon. I think things will return to normal fairly soon.
Old School Betty said…
Shannon: As an advocate for this forum you are on the frontline of the assault. Taking a respite is good for the soul and the spirit. Breathe sister. We support you.
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Shannon, I’m so sorry 🙁 You’ve been SO tactful throughout this whole thing- I don’t get why people have a problem.

No wonder you don’t believe in God anymore… we Christians can get pretty vicious. Really, I’m sorry.

Hey guys, LOVE wins.

Nunquam Honorablus said…
Er, um, that isn’t to trivialize WHY you believe WHAT you believe, but to… uh… I hope you get what I’m saying. If what I said was insulting at all, I didn’t mean it like that. Sorry! Augh words are hard.
Joy G. said…
Shannon,
Thanks for speaking up for yourself. You are always welcome here. 🙂 You are loved–Go ahead, take a break 🙂
Joy G. said…
I love the particular scriptures RA highlighted because they are exactly not “pretty” and “controlled.” And they were used in context, perfectly. I am a hypocrite! I am a pharisee! And I need to be reminded of that should I forget. Thanks to all who have the guts to make religious people look bad.

Dan- thank you for the insightful assessment of the “personna” created by DH (inadvertantly). From being in ministry leadership myself, I know how easy it is to get high on your own morality, so to speak. Especially if you are a very conscientious, high-performing, serious person. With a lot of discipline. I remember how even my friends were intimidated by me and my “holiness.” Instead of bringing them closer, it ostracized them though. Jesus wasn’t intimidating like that. Kids ran up to him. Right now, I visit a church where the pastor has a gargantuan personna (for good reason- he’s “anointed,” moral, spiritual, and brilliant).
People are awed by him. But the problem with that is that no one dares to question him, because they “can’t compete” with his godliness. (As if this is a race.) I remember being terrified by my own reputation because it was so surreal, larger-than-life. I wasn’t lying. But try being honest when all you get is positive ‘press.’ It makes you think that spiritual performance is all that makes. And the worst thing in the world is for you to “mess up.” (Because of all those people who would be disappointed.) I’m glad Jesus never put pressure on his disciples like that. He never told them to “be clean.” That was what He was for.

But all I really wanted was for someone to see through me. See and not be horrified by the fact that I was “just human.” I deeply wanted someone to not be impressed by me for once. So I say–“Please keep pointing out the things I do that put the emphasis on me and not on Jesus’ work! Speak up when I try to impress based on my right actions versus the finished righteousness of Christ on my behalf! Get it my face! Curse me out if you need to! But please wake me up when I start to believe my goodness is of any account. Please point it out so I can stay grounded at the foot of the Cross!” Paul, at the *end* of his ministry described himself as the chief of sinners. Wow, I aspire to that self-understanding. “That HE might be shown greater”!! I’m still looking out for my ego–unfortunately, it makes me “ashamed” of the gospel sometimes. Any ministry leader needs to have this proclivity repeatedly brought to his/her attention.

Thank you, RA, and so many others…

Anonymous said…
Shannon,

Just to let you know that your comments have helped me many times. I think you play a very special part.

Anonymous said…
Thanks Joy G.
Anonymous said…
Thanks Joy G. Very True.
Anonymous said…
What saddens me most is that this post basically tells your readers that thought you didn’t handle yourself very well where to stick it. I have been a faithful reader and supporter of this blog but I honestly cannot say that I agree with the way the call was handled from the beginning to end of your part of the conversation. Like so many have said before I feel that your motive was already set before you started talking and it made no difference what Dave said. Bottom line, some of your supporters think you screwed up but rather than even apologize and then share your thoughts, you just shared your opinion and told everyone else to pretty much back off and go to hell and that is bull. This whole community has attacked Dave multiple times for his attitude and tone when dealing with conflict but yet you handled yourself during and after and even now no better than he.

This saddens me….I will be moving onto a new community, it’d be interesting to know who of you feel the same

Anonymous said…
and the anonymous comment above me….i feel the same.
Recovering Alumni said…
Really? I’m having a hard time comprehending how I told you to “stick it.” I wrote this post just like every other post…backed with my opinion and Scripture. You are free to disagree of course – but you’ve got to have a reason, you know?

It makes me wonder if you’ve really been a part of this community or if you are just posing as an upset member for looks…

As far as what Dave said making a difference, there were multiple lies told during the call…and I’ll get to those next week.

Shannon Kish said…
Anon @5:26

We are sad to see you go.

I would say, however, that I don’t feel as if RA has told anyone to “go to hell.”

I think RA has been incredibly patient through this process and especially the last week. There were a LOT of comments that should have been deleted for violating the comment policy, but I think RA allowed them to stay because their points were to be considered. (Correct me if I am wrong, RA)

Philip E said…
Ra,
I disagree with you about how Matthew 23 was “meant to be read”. When we are talking about not the content, but the tone of what someone says, I think we need to look at the entire passage.
The end of the passage ends with Jesus lamenting over the same people that he was pronouncing woes against.

I can not read this passage aloud without hearing Jesus compassion, not just for those wronged, but also for those who had done wrong. This wasn’t Jesus just being pissed off and yelling at the Pharisees, this was Jesus with his heart torn.

As far as the passage in Galatians goes 1. I see nothing to indicate that Paul was angry and lashing out to the people he’s speaking to, and 2. I think that saying he “wishes he were there so he could change his tone” is saying that letters do not convey the tone that it is meant, and if he were there in person, they would be able to hear the nonverbal cues in speech and would understand the reasons Paul wrote what he did. Otherwise, why would Paul change his tone just because he was physically present?

As far as the rest, this post and many on this site could certainly be considered smooth talking. The issue in scripture isn’t that people were persuasive, but that they were persuasive for purposes that were evil.
I think that Solomon would certainly fall under the label of a smooth talker for certain, and that was a gift directly from God.

That said, what your tone sounded like to me on the call was a somewhat irrational person who simply had a vindictive hate towards Dave Hasz. It seemed that no matter what he said, you were out to find fault with it. It also sounded very arrogant and superior.
I’m not saying that those are your actual motivations, I’m just saying what your tone and questions sounded like to me.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, also we are told that “As far as it is possible, be at peace with everyone.”
Your tone was not one that sounded to me like someone seeking change of any form, it sounded like you just wanted to pick a fight.

It also seems that most of the people in support of the tone used by RA are more interested in blasting Dave than they are of actually wanting change at the HA(and yes, I understand that the purpose of this blog isn’t primarily to see change happen at the HA, but I can’t see how the conference call was anything but an attempt to do anything but that).

Anonymous said…
I am the anon that posted at 5:26 and I can assure you I have been a member of this blog for a very long time…no poser here.

The simple fact RA is that you pissed alot of people off…plain and simple. You made people that don’t like you mad (which I guess might not matter) but more importantly you made a lot of people that support this site upset as they put a lot of faith in you that you were actually going to do something. Simply put, you hurt alot of people but you have done nothing to acknowledge that but instead have defended yourself and just told everyone else that they don’t have to agree with you. How did you tell people to stick it?…..” I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..I think thats pretty clear. As far as “multiple lies heard during the call”, I am interested in hearing those from your opinion because to be honest I’m having a hard time believing what you have to say now. That is the way I feel that a lot of people seem to feel and yet you don’t care….that seriously is what is ultimately sad to me.

Lastly, Shannon I never said anyone said “go to hell”. also the last paragraph of your statement: “I think RA has been incredibly patient through this process and especially the last week. There were a LOT of comments that should have been deleted for violating the comment policy, but I think RA allowed them to stay because their points were to be considered. (Correct me if I am wrong, RA)”….how arrogant is that, I mean seriously!? Basically your saying that nobody can debate or confront RA for any wrong doing, am I right? Where is the accountability to RA? Where is the accountability to you? How can we know your both telling the truth? How do I know your not the same person?

In conclusion, so many thoughts that are suddenly coming out ever since the call and the bottom line, your losing people….you had a great cause but your losing it and I caution you to consider and be careful as you move forward.

Very well put thoughts Phil…I was surprised to see your thoughts but am glad that someone else that was supportive of this site spoke up with real feelings of whats up.

Recovering Alumni said…
Hey Anon, I think you may have misunderstand what I meant by this line:

“I don’t care if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..”

I didn’t mean – I don’t care and screw you. What I was trying to convey (and obviously poorly) was that I think its fair to disagree with me based on the my accusations/arguments. Civil, God-loving people can agree to disagree on the substance of things. I was trying to point out that I don’t think its fair to throw me under the bus, just because of my tone. Does that make sense?

Philip – I appreciate that you actually addressed my arguments. I disagree of course. 🙂

To the other commenters on this thread and others: I’m not sure why I am being blasted for so called “not wanting to see change at TM.” I’m not in a position to make change – and the person who is – Dave Hasz – just denied that ESOAL is causing serious problems for people, and that he caused severe devastation to people’s lives.

So who is really the person that doesn’t want to see change at TM?

Recovering Alumni said…
* Perhaps a better wording would have been:

“I don’t mind if you disagree with my opinions and accusations of TM,”…..”

Recovering Alumni said…
Anon – Let me also add that I would be very sorry to see you go and I am sorry that I “pissed people off.” That was never my intent…

If I’m being honest, its confusing….People will stand by Dave as he hurts numerous people…but I get the crap beat out of me (verbally) for one mis-step (in your eyes). Help me understand that.

Recovering Alumni said…
And one more comment…lol

I have no desire to pick a fight with anyone here. If that is how its coming across – I apologize. Its occured to me that maybe everyone is taking the tone I had on the call and overlaying that onto all my posts now…which would be a mistake. 😐

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t hurt by many of the comments made here this week. But I guess that’s just par for the course. Personally, I’m ready to drop this whole thing and get back to business as usual…

Candor said…
RA – I thought you handled the call very well with Hasz. You made your statements and stood up for the people who have been hurt by the cult. I really appreciated that, so thank you. And, for the record, you were a million times more calm than I would have been.
Anonymous said…
RA- I am the anon from 10:31 and wanted to say a couple things…..First let me say that I have no intentions of picking a fight with you. We obviously have differences and thats fine as we both have had different experiences. I would like to respond to a couple of your thoughts above starting with: To the other commenters on this thread and others: “I’m not sure why I am being blasted for so called “not wanting to see change at TM.” I’m not in a position to make change – and the person who is – Dave Hasz – just denied that ESOAL is causing serious problems for people, and that he caused severe devastation to people’s lives.”….are you really not sure why your being blasted so much? really? Your being blasted becuase it SEEMS that you just have a vendetta against Dave Hasz and it really doesn’t matter what he says or does. Furthermore, how do you expect Dave to respond to you?? You are dragging him and his family through the mud whether you feel they deserve it or not…how would you respond? actually I know how you would respond as I’ve seen it and I think thats part of the problem.

Next you said “If I’m being honest, its confusing….People will stand by Dave as he hurts numerous people…but I get the crap beat out of me (verbally) for one mis-step (in your eyes). Help me understand that.”- I have a lot to say about this but first off, welcome to the world of leadership :). When you step up to the plate to lead people or a cause, you better be ready to get the proverbial “crap” beat out of you. You have a lot of supporters so take encouragement to know that people do support you and care about you alot. BUT if your going to lead this cause you need to know that you are going to have some haters and while some of them are going to criticize for one mistep, I will tell you that you haven’t had “one mis-step” in my eyes and I’m sure in the eyes of a lot of others. In looking back I actually have realized that you have had numerous misteps. I believe that you have misled alot of people to believe that you actually cared about seeing change at TM but more importantly that you actually cared about helping those that have been hurt. My main “debate” if you want to call it that is that it seems you simply have a vendeta against TM and Dave Hasz and are willing to do whatever you can to make that known…..I no longer believe your main agenda item is to help people from being hurt. Listen, you have been hurt and that is valid and your right people will stand by Dave Hasz but look at this from a different perspective, people are standing by you as you hurt people….you are hurting those on the “TM party line” by creating an atmosphere of hate to every last one of them (yes I know they have done the same but does it make it right?), you are hurting the reputation of a solid man of God and dragging him and in reality his family through the mud (and yes I know you hold him responsible for what is being done/has been done but there are boundaries). You may not see it that way but seriously, you say that Dave is the leader of the ministry so everything that goes wrong there is his responsibility so I will tell you this, you are the leader of this “ministry” to those that are abused so is it right to hold you accountable for all of your supporters comments, thoughts and actions?- I am guessing you will say no and probably debate that, but I hope you can see the corelation there because essentially you and your supporters are doing that to TM and the leadership there.

continued in the next post…..

Anonymous said…
In your comment at 12:16am you said that “everyone is taking the tone I had on the call and overlaying that onto all my posts now”…well of course thats going to happen. Up until the conference call, I think that alot of people felt on board with your cause because they really believed that you had people in mind and really wanted to help them but when they heard you on the conference call but also saw how you responded after, their eyes were opened to alot of things and who they may think you are.

In conclusion, I think I’ve said enough and I’ll be honest to say that I am not confident this comment has helped much and I’ll probably get a lot of negative comments back but I do want to let you know something….RA, what happened to you was not right. The hurt and abuse from anyone else that went through TM is also not right…it is wrong and thats the truth. The hurt that is being hurled at you and the other supporters of your blog since the conference call is also not right but you had to know it would be expected….obviously that doesn’t make it any less hurtful. There does need to be some accountability to you and the other leaders of this blog and bottom line is that I’m not sure that is happening hence the purpose of this comment. You want to hold accountable Dave Hasz and the rest of TM but who is doing that for you? You said that you’d personally like to drop this whole thing and get back to buisness as usual….I’m not sure thats going to happen as people see you in a different light now. You started the battle even if you didn’t mean to and now you must continue to go through it, even though it may hurt at times.

My advice, for what its worth, is for you to be careful with your words…choose them wisely as people really do put alot of weight in them. Second, you are somewhat responsible for what is said of your supporters…keep that in mind as you allow things to happen on this blog. Lastly tread lightly with how you carry yourself from this point forward as I am very confident that you now have an even bigger target on your back whether you like or not….its not right, but it is what it is.

Anyway, these are all of my scattered thoughts, I hope they made sense.

Recovering Alumni said…
I think we are coming from 2 totally different paradigms and I’m not sure if we’ll be able to find common ground on these issues…but let me respond to a couple of things.

You think that I’ve lied about wanting to help hurt people and instead I just have a vendetta against Dave Hasz. If that is what you want to believe, you have all the freedom in the world to do that. All I can tell you is that it’s not true. And I think nearly every single person who has ever contacted me via email and phone call could vouch for that.

People like to make comparisons between what I’m doing and DH is doing, when really there is almost zero similarities. This is a blog. Its only a blog. You don’t live on my compound. I don’t tell you where you will work, what time you will get up, what activities you will do, when you are in trouble, when you are allowed to go home, who and what you are allowed to listen to and watch…do you realize the difference in levels of control and coercion that DH has vs. what I have on this little old blog? Interns spend 24 hours a day for a year or more living in the culture HE creates. That culture is spiritually and emotionally toxic and that is why he is responsible for what goes on there.

This is very different. This is like a conversation in my living room. I am not trying to control anyone. People come and go as they please and share from their heart – I might start the conversation and I might host it, but it doesn’t mean I’m responsible for everything that is said. We are all adults here. The only control I exert is asking everyone to be honest about who they are and where they are on the journey, and to refrain from insulting one another.

Recovering Alumni said…
I do try to choose my words carefully, but this is a digital medium and you can’t read tone of voice, expression or body language. Inevitably, this leads to miscommunication. Unfortunately, that is just part of this medium and there is only so much I can do to combat that. 🙁 I’ve spoken with many readers on the phone as well as meeting many in person. I am extremely accessible to anyone who wants to get to know me.

Let me state for the record that I don’t encourage ANYONE to blindly follow what I say. I encourage everyone to think for themselves, gather the facts, and make their own opinions. Dissenting, but respectful voices (like yourself) are always welcome on the blog, and in friendship (unlike at TM).

Anonymous said…
I appreciate your response, I really do.

I would like to clarify a couple things….first I don’t think you lied about caring about people, i do believe you care about people and I apologize if it didn’t come out that way. I believe that this whole thing started with the best intentions and even now it might seem like you have the best intentions but I also believe that the deeper you’ve gotten and the more stories you’ve heard, the more your emotions may have become involved and the more of a vendetta may now be there maybe without you realizing it. My challenge, take a break…take some time away and seek what the Lord would have you do with this medium. Thats not meant to be some cheesy TM lingo, but seriously maybe it would good to take a break and figure out exactly where your heart and mind is and really figure out what you can do to really help people that have been abused….just think about it instead of immediately dismissing it. Where and how can you do the most good for all of us that have been hurt?…just something to think about.

You are right, you are completely COMPLETELY different than Dave Hasz…..you do need to realize though that naturally people want to follow someone, for some you’ve become that person and people are following you. You have become the voice that so many people have suppressed for so long and some people need that. Like it or not RA, you are very influential in sooo many lives and with that comes responsibility.

Lastly I do agree with you that this is a medium that leads to miscommunication, it’d almost be better if this was a video or audio blog so we could properly communicate….does that type of thing even exist? :). Part of choosing your words carefully though is listening to your readers and addressing concerns that they bring up instead of just dismissing them (I don’t feel that you do this alot but I do feel that you have done this more and more since this whole thing got blown up as you’ve gotten attacked more). Humility is something that I believe you could practice more of and I mean that with all sincerity and respect. Your accountability comes somewhat through your supporters so listen to what they have to say when it may be negative and don’t let it get to your head when its all positive or against the “party line”. I know you listen but sometimes it takes really hearing instead of just listening…something that I try to practice is really listening to what people say and anything that comes up I hear out as even though it may not be true, there is still a reason someone is saying it to me….this has helped me to not always go on the defense and if I hear the same thing from multiple people, chances are there might be a bit of truth. I am not perfect by any means, but this is me being open and vulnerable a bit 🙂

I do respect you RA, alot and you need to know that. I supported this blog for a very long time as I had my own share of “experiences” from TM and I found a lot of healing in hearing the stories of others and communicating hurts with those that understand. Our viewpoints have shifted a bit but I still think there is something we can learn from each other as brother and sister in Christ (that sounds TM cliche) :).

Recovering Alumni said…
Hi Anon,

“but I also believe that the deeper you’ve gotten and the more stories you’ve heard, the more your emotions may have become involved”

Your statement above is absolutely true. I’m pretty sure I’ve said it before, either here or on the forums. My emotion has escalated from almost non-existent when I started, to at times, raging mad at the hurt and injustice people have suffered. I can’t remain unaffected when people tell me they’ve been suicidal or that they’ve waited for years for someone to validate their experiences and feelings.

I will also admit that there are times when I’ve judged the heart of Dave, and other TM leadership. At times I have allowed myself to feel superior to them…but honestly, I think those times have been minimal, because I’m reminded of all the times that I spiritually abused people. I have no doubt in my mind that I am and was capable of severe spiritual abuse -all the while thinking I was helping people.

Perhaps the difference between us is that I believe Dave has (at least temporarily) disqualified himself from ministry due to the fact that he is oblivious and/or unrepentant about the hurt he is causing. I say that even knowing that some interns say they have a great experience. Some people might ask why. I would respond with another question…If a father has 5 children, how many does he need to abuse before they are all taken away? The answer: only one.

And honestly, though people may scoff at this, I believe the best thing for Dave’s emotional and spiritual health would be a removal from ministry. He doesn’t even realize the damage he is doing and I can only assume he is a victim of his judgmental, legalistic mindset as much as the interns are. And that is no way to live.

So, in my opinion, grace to Dave is pointing out what he has done and not glossing it over and pretending everything is ok. Truly, in my deepest heart I really do care for Dave and want to see him walk in freedom and I do look forward to the day where we can look back at this as friends and say, “Look what God has done, aren’t you glad we aren’t there anymore?”

Perhaps my post on Friday was written from a place of anger and defensiveness…I will concede that. (I still stand behind this post). That is not to say there isn’t any truth in it, only that it may not have been constructive and helpful. For that, I do apologize.

Recovering Alumni said…
Also, I wonder how much personality plays into this? I am a very passionate person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. When my husband and I fight, I yell, but I also get over it very quickly. I’m not afraid of aggressive confrontation the way that some other personality types tend to be. My style is to get everything out there so we can move on. I wonder if/how that might play into this whole situation.
Recovering Alumni said…
The audio blog is actually an intriguing idea…let me look into that. Thanks for the suggestion. 🙂
Recovering Alumni said…
And let me add one bit for clarification…spiritual abuse does not have to be intentional in order to be abuse. In fact, every time I acted in a spiritually abusive manner, I thought I was doing what was “right” or what was in the best interest of the person I was abusing. That is part of what makes it so harmful and insidious.

So, when I say TM fosters a spiritually abusive environment, I am not saying that Dave, Ron, etc. INTENTIONALLY mean to harm people.

Woo Hoo Girl said…
I think you know how TM & Leadership feel now…tough having people question your motives, eh? This is what you signed up for, RA. This is what DH & many others warned you about earlier.
Judge not lest YOU be judged….

You will have more to account for because of all of this….good or bad….just more.

I feel, for the most part, your heart is in the right place….just question whether you are trying to do good….or rally troops against an organization. It’s confusing to me honestly.

Everyone has crappy tone once in a while, so I get that. (You should hear me speak to my husband when its that time of the month!)

Can you let us in on how much you pray for TM & its leaders? I happen to believe THAT is how real change can begin.

Nunquam Honorablus said…
Woah, that’s a slippery slope, WH Girl.

Praying for something is cool, but if you don’t DO anything about it, when you can, then what’s the point?

Asking someone “how much” they pray seems to be more of a thinly veiled judgment waiting to happen, than an honest question. I don’t think that was your intent, I really don’t, but that’s just what it SEEMED like. Even if it weren’t, I don’t really see the point behind asking someone something like that. I would never think to ask Dave, or Ron, or anybody, “how much” they pray for anything.

… seriously, who keeps track of that?? “Oh, sorry guys, I need to pray for Africa instead, cause I haven’t hit my three-hour mark yet.” The notion seems absurd and almost legalistic to me, is all.

I dunno, my two cents. Take em for what they’re worth 😉

question said…
I agree that is a bit of a slippery slope but in all reality and honesty Nunquam, what are you actually “doing” about anything?

Why is setting aside time to pray for anything absurd or legalistic? I do that all the time and I make it a goal to spend at least 30 minutes a day praying for specific things at times….I don’t find it absurd, maybe a bit of discipline if anything

good two cents! 😉

Nunquam Honorablus said…
What am I, personally, doing? I’m trying my best to love people online 😉 Make sure that they know that somebody in this world understands their pain/confusion and that they aren’t just whining to the world. I mean, hey, I am NO psychologist, but sometimes it’s nice to have a place to get your hurts OUT there.

Also, if one more kid knows both sides of the HA before going in, I think it’s worth it.

And about prayer- I guess this is just personal preference, but I’ve never been a fan of setting aside time to pray for a specific thing. I just talk to God about it when the thought crosses my mind. Sometimes it’s for thirty seconds, sometimes it’s for twenty minutes. I feel like our relationship is a lot more authentic that way.

Maybe it’s just because I’m so burnt out because I spent all my quiet times at the HA praying for funds to come in for my tuition. I know I wanted to just TALK to God about US, but I was too scared of “not praying enough” for my tuition. I dunno.

Woo Hoo Girl said…
Yeah, you were reaching when you mentioned ‘amount of time’ praying as I think you KNOW i didn’t mean that.

Blogging/Loving/Talking things out are all GREAT….but I know FOR A FACT that prayer moves the Hand of God….softens hearts and preps them for change. Change is inevitable…

So, with all the ‘dissecting’ of each word written on this blog, let me rephrase:

Are we taking the time to pray for the change that GOD feels is needed….not just what WE feel is needed?

Nunquam Honorablus said…
Actually, I was pretty sure you were looking for a number, but I didn’t think you meant it to sound like anything other than curiosity. However, I am inclined to change my mind due to the tone of that last comment! Not that it’s a good or bad tone, just different.

I don’t know people’s prayer lives here well enough to answer for anyone else, but I know that when God and I do chat, it’s often about His best for TM, whether that be our idea for change, Dave’s idea for constance, or an entirely new thing that nobody expects.

I think it sounds kind of braggy to say “yeah I DO pray for God’s will over TM, and frequently!“, so I guess that was my issue with the question maybe? And if anyone were to say “you know, I don’t pray for TM very often”, they’re wide open for attack in the name of “accountability”.

So yeah, that’s where I’m coming from. I hope that clears things up!

Recovering Alumni said…
Why do you want to know how much I pray for TM?

What does that have to do with the fact that TM routinely abuses people and then lies about it?

Woo Hoo Girl said…
Because prayer changes things, RA. Plain & Simple. Whether TM does a darn thing….God is cool like that. He makes ways above and beyond how we can think or imagine…and it all starts with a mustard seed sized prayer full of faith.

I am also now curious to know why such a simple and typically ‘non controversial’ question ‘of accountability’ regarding prayer has people getting a tad defensive. (Perhaps I’m misinterpreting….)

It’s always easier to ‘talk’ about junk going on in life…than it is to pray. That is the purpose of my question.

It’s simple…is prayer involved? Now how much time are you praying?

Woo Hoo Girl said…
that meant to say “NOT how much time are you praying?”
Recovering Alumni said…
People are defensive probably b/c a lot of us believe you can’t “measure” prayer. And it reminds us of the legalism of checking off accountability cards and such….Plus, its a common tactic that Christians use when they want someone to shut up about something…so, not saying that is what you meant by the question, but that is probably what some of us heard.

That said, yes, of course I have prayed for TM and Dave.

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