I’m going to take a few posts to respond to the monster 2.5 hour conference call last night. In this post, I’d like to highlight what I appreciated and was glad to hear.
At the beginning of the call, Dave listed several significant changes which I think will help prevent some of the problems we’ve seen in the past.
- Driving Policy – All ATFs and LTEs outside of 200 miles are driven by professional drivers. Nobody under the age of 21 can drive for ministry business. Drivers must be certified.
- Whistleblower Hotline
- Feedback from Interns – Each week, a class is led by either Dave or Heath where interns can ask any question anonymously or in person.
- Monthly Anonymous Survey – Interns rate a variety of things including the food, their job, their CA, their Dorm Directors, their ability to sleep, their free time, etc.
- Manager Evaluations – every 6 weeks
There was also one moment in the call where Dave took responsibility and apologized for creating a harmful culture at the HA.
@ 1:56:20 – Its my fault that this took place. There was a sense that if you were an outgoing, charismatic person you got put in leadership. That was immaturity on my part. I am to blame from some of the culture that was wrong.
This particular admission focused on only choosing interns for leadership positions who fit a particular mold/image. He indicated that since around 2004, he has stopped that practice. I applaud Dave for being bold enough to accept the blame for that and for changing it. That is exactly the kind of attitude and change that I am glad to see.
Also, of significance (and news to me!), Dave actually recognized the arrogance that the culture of the HA has produced in interns over the years. I am really pleased with this response and truly hope that recent interns are not leaving the HA with haughty attitudes, as in years past.
2:20 – (Paraphrase – listen for the whole thing) We have not done enough to keep from being arrogant. We have fostered that. We have not seasoned that enough with grace and mercy and servant heartedness. And thats my fault. We have made changes since 2002-2003. We have to get better at that, there is no doubt. Dave apologizes for not setting interns up for success in this area.
I hope part of the changes being made include dropping the “elite warrior” rhetoric which has been in place as recently as last year. (And I guess all of the rude comments here and on fb come from the olden days of arrogant interns, not recent alumni)
There were a few other apologies sprinkled throughout the night, but the points above are what most stood out to me and what I appreciated most.
32 comments:
Dave said in the conference call (around 33:47), that there are trained, medical professionals available at all times during ESOAL. From experience as a facilitator, I know that this is not true, as accurate to 2007 ESOAL. This was a direct lie as I was the most experienced first responder to the situation I found myself in. This is just one thing that popped out, and I thought I should share.
June 30, 2010 8:41 AM
layne said…
These are such great ideas for change.
The elitist culture created within HA and hosted by interns has always been one of my biggest concerns. As a person who made many close friends with the “locals” in Tyler, I’ve had many a discussion with those looking in from the outside. They would have almost nothing to do with interns because of their arrogant christianity. Our local church was often segregated because of this, the locals staying as far away from HA interns as possible, allowing a handful they considered less tainted by the culture into their circles. I was never comfortable with this and it always made me feel sad.
I place myself into this misguided elitist-driven catagory too. I thought I knew everything about everything when I was at HA (of course! I was “wise beyond my years” and a chosen elite warrior for the Lord) and people couldn’t help but feel that attitude, no matter how hard I tried to relate.
I’m not sure how this can be altered without changing _everything_ about the HA program. YWAM seems to be able to do it (those hippies! ^^), but they are an entirely different ministry so.. I just don’t know. Still, I wish Dave and the rest of the HA staff the best of luck.
June 30, 2010 9:18 AM
Anonymous said…
I had a hard time apologizing to anybody. . . I felt like I had to be right to prove I was a Christian. That’s so sick.
June 30, 2010 9:26 AM
mike said…
Anon at 8:41, you may have not noticed the certified medical professional there but I assure you there is one and has been for at least the last 3 years. I have been involved in the planning of ESOAL for the last 3 years and can testify that there has always been a professional on duty 24 hours a day as well as one on call just in case. Now in a case of a “first responder” as you put it, that might be a bit of a different story. Example: The company is in the back 40 marching through the woods and someone sprains there ankle. Is there a professional right there standing around waiting, no as they are back in the medic tent so the individual would either need to be carried to one of the Major’s trucks (yes every major over each company has a truck that follows the company everywhere they go) to be driven back to the tent or the medic would be radio-ed to come take care of the indvidual.
Just clarification that Dave did not lie, that is a blatant truth there is a certified medic on duty 24 hours a day at all times during ESOAL.
Furthermore let me say that in almost every city an ambulance is usually stationed somewhere within the city limits waiting for calls that they may need to respond to. What TM has done in the past is contact the amublance department and make the campus available for them to station themselves at so that should any medical emergency arise on campus, there is an amublance already there ready. Dave was also truthful in his statement that last year there were no major medical emergencies that resulted in needing an ambulance. I would like to say this last year of ESOAL was the best yet in regards to safety of the interns, positive pushing of the interns and development of them. I saw more changes this last year than any year that I’ve been a part of it and I was a part of it for 7 years.
June 30, 2010 9:37 AM
Anonymous said…
I agree. I think these changes are definitely a step in the right direction. I hope they are utilized (especially the reviews, the hotline, and the monthly VIBE report that the interns fill out) and taken into consideration.
I was happy to hear that they recognize the culture of elitism that is produced at the HA and that they are making sure people of all types are recognized for their leadership skills.
I was also relieved to hear that they made changes concerning the driving policy. I spent way too many cross country trips crammed into a 15 passenger van with 15 18 and 19 year olds who were all expected to take turns driving so we wouldn’t have to stop. There were so many accidents and dangerous situations.
RA I’m glad you are willing to take the time to respond to the items that you were pleased with (I’m sure there were many things that you were not ok with as well…which is fine of course!). At times it can come across that the only thing that some memembers of this community would be ok with is shutting down the whole thing (which is ok if that is your opinion, but it probably won’t happen). By recognizing the positive changes this helps the “tone” of the blog, allows others to listen less defensively, and helps to continue to facilitate part of the mission of this RA community.
I think that it is important to remember that one of our goals should be to see positive changes at the HA. This blog can help facilitate those changes for the current and future interns. There was a saying when I was at the HA (over 10 years ago…I’m definitely not a teenager or just older than a teenager) that your hurt often becomes your ministry. I realize that many were hurt by former staff members, and unfortunately those former staffers will probably never know or acknowledge those hurts, but it is good to see that Dave apologized for the actions of others (those that he lead, but people that he could not control every word or action that cam from them), and that those hurts have contributed to things like the 6 week manager evaluation etc. That is truly making our hurts our ministry.
June 30, 2010 9:48 AM
mike said…
just wanted to let you guys know that the manager evals, the hotline, and the monthly VIBE report that the interns fill out are nothing new….these have been around for a few years now and they do work for the most part. Obviously the eval and vibe are only as effective as how honst the intern really is that is completing it 🙂
June 30, 2010 9:57 AM
layne said…
Mike: It’s great to hear that those particular tools have been around for awhile (I think I may remember some of them from my time there), but also a little frightening to know this while listening to DH repeat that he wasn’t aware of certain situations happening around him (I understand that he can’t possibly know every little thing that happens, but some of the bigger incidents surely shouldn’t skip his attention. Where is the gap?) I wonder if maybe the tools need a rehaul? Perhaps interns feel like they can’t be completely open during evaluations. Are they reminded often that the hotline exists? Is there evidence to show that the tools are working to keep a balance on the leadership structure? How are fellow interns and CA’s kept in check (I ask because it’s occurred to me – through reading the stories here and from personal experience – that much of the abuse comes from peers rather than staff)?
June 30, 2010 10:10 AM
Anonymous said…
It definitely does seem like a lot of the abuse, especially about not being spiritual enough, womanly enough, etc. do come from peers. How sad. How is that changed?
June 30, 2010 10:13 AM
Anonymous said…
Seem familiar?
“But no one can believe in or support an organization that marginalizes staff into a pseudo slavery-internment camp life-style, uses force and a fear campaign and engages dictatorial style “management” to arbitrarily mandate the lives and passions and beliefs, and more fundamentally, the spirituality — of the millions.”
http://www.scientology-cult.com/on-mike-rinder.html
June 30, 2010 10:29 AM
Recovering Alumni said…
Mike – If that medic has been around for the past 3 years, then it is absolutely NOT enough. There have been plenty of injuries in the past 3 years that did not recieve adequate medical care (even when they went to the med tent). That is an indisputable fact.
June 30, 2010 12:09 PM
mike said…
you are right RA so what would you suggest? 1 medic for every participant? Its not feasible…..I know you’d rather them end it completely 🙂
In all due respect, you haven’t been apart of it or seen it in the most recent years so I’m not sure its fair of you to create a judgement based off people stories. Now I will say this, obviously you have a vested interest in helping people so and that is evident so I appreciate your heart and concerns absolutely. My closing thought would be that it doesn’t really look like it is going to end any time soon so my question to you would be, what in your opinion can practically be done outside of what has been done already to keep injuries from happening so much if at all. Any ideas?
Honestly RA, I come from a differnet menality as you but I do still appreciate where your coming from. On some levels I think it completley appropriate for us to come back at TM with an idea for change versus just a comment that their not doing enough, do you know what i mean?
Thank!
June 30, 2010 12:31 PM
mike said…
I also think having Dave actually go through it this next time will help open his eyes to what is really happening
June 30, 2010 12:33 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
mike – Yes, you are right. I am absolutely in favor of shutting ESOAL down. Call me crazy, I’m just not a big fan of having people roll in each other’s vomit as a spiritual exercise.
But, if I was in favor of ESOAL and I still truly cared for the health and safety of every intern, I would do WHATEVER it took to ensure that they were safe. You tell parents that their children are safe at TM. Their children are NOT safe at TM. Lots of stories prove that. Not everyone is injured permanently or severely – but what is an acceptable rate of collateral damage to you? Parents are trusting you with the most precious thing they have – they’re children.
If TM is going to put them in a position where an injury is likely, they need to provide medical care. They need to go overboard on providing medical care. 1 medic per person? Obviously, that is overkill and a silly suggestion on your part. It doesn’t take a whole lot of common sense or even medical expertise to see that 1 medic per 500 people (many of whom may need to see the medic multiple times) is not adequate.
For all of the talk of caring about intern’s safety, this is one of the areas that bothers me the most and for which TM has not backed up their talk.
In fact, ESOAL is most likely illegal according to hazing laws…or skirting the very edge of the law. What about ethics? What about being above reproach? What about avoiding the appearance of evil? I could go on and on. TM’s excuses simply don’t cut it.
June 30, 2010 12:44 PM
Anonymous said…
To go off of the posts about a lot of the abuse coming from peers…
Sadly this is happening at many Christian colleges, and in many ways the church as a whole too. Unfortunately it seems like there are always going to be people that for some reason feel like it is necessary to judge everyone else by their own moral and spiritual standards. These standards are not the ones that are laid out in the Bible, rather the “gray” areas like drinking etc. I understand holding people accountable to rules that they committed to in a setting like TM, but saying they are not acting enough like a woman, etc. is wrong and not what was intended by the rules. They are putting their own spin on the spiritual and moral standards that have been set. It is very frustrating and has greatly affected my husband and myself over the years.
June 30, 2010 12:56 PM
Jami Carter said…
Doing away with ESOAL entirely seems like a pretty decent option. Why do people act like this is just too much to expect?
June 30, 2010 1:05 PM
MM said…
@ mike 12:33 pm
do you think they will really treat dave like the interns have been treated in the past. i dont think so.
June 30, 2010 1:09 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
mike –
I also wanted to add that I appreciate your questions and your tone. I’m taking your comments at face value (and also guessing that you are a youngster who has spent all/most of your time away from home at TM). I believe you have a heart for God and pure intentions. I didn’t mean to imply by my comment that I feel that you personally don’t care about the intern’s health and safety. I was speaking directly about TM’s continued inaction to rectify this situation as well as Dave’s statement on the call that he didn’t know about any of the injuries I listed.
As an organization, TM has made it pretty clear that they don’t value my input or see a problem with ESOAL as it currently stands…so someone on the lower pole lower than Dave (like yourself) coming here asking for suggestions is a little disingenous from the organizational standpoint.
To be clear, I dont think YOU are as a disingenous as a person, but that it does me no good to talk with lower TM staff when TM as a whole clearly does not see the problem.
Does that make sense?
June 30, 2010 2:39 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
*lower pole = totem pole
June 30, 2010 2:40 PM
mike said…
I am so frustrated!!!!! I wrote out a very well thought through comment and it didn’t go through!!!!
Okay, so bottom line i appreciate your comments RA, I will reply later this afternoon. I did want you to know that I felt no offense by your comments, I appreciate a healthy conversation….also I’m not that young…I did college before TM, am 30 years old and well into my career 🙂
More later!
June 30, 2010 3:12 PM
Nunquam Honorablus said…
Mike is a pretty cool guy. He engages in intelligent, level-headed discussion and doesn’t afraid of anything.
I vote he stays.
June 30, 2010 3:14 PM
Recovering Alumni said…
mike – I hate it when that happens…sometimes if you take a long time to write your comment, the site times out. 🙁
June 30, 2010 3:18 PM
sarah said…
I don’t agree with getting rid of ESOAL. You have to understand, that although there are some people that had a bad experience with ESOAL or didn’t get anything out of it whatsoever, there’s also a huge group of people that were really impacted by ESOAL (myself included). So I don’t think it’s fair to lobby that the event be done away with just because you don’t agree with it or because you had a bad experience with it.
My year of ESOAL I never heard of anyone that got injured, but I’m sure there were people so I’m sure it would probably be smart for the HA to have a bit more medical attention available if there isn’t enough already.
One thing I do think they should probably restructure is the idea of having ESOAL be kind of a secret. I completely understand the reasoning behind this and I’m glad we didn’t really know anything about it before we did it because it made the experience better for me, but I think with the different feelings surrounding ESOAL now, it would probably be smart for TM to put out ahead of time exactly what ESOAL is all about so the interns will be able to make a more informed decision on whether they would like to participate or not.
I think we all have to remember that ESOAL is OPTIONAL. It’s never been mandatory or forced.
June 30, 2010 5:42 PM
Anonymous said…
“I think we all have to remember that ESOAL is OPTIONAL. It’s never been mandatory or forced.”
Unfortunately, we’re dealing with impressionable young people… and a ministry that has a history of using guilt and manipulation to get their desired results.
June 30, 2010 5:54 PM
Anonymous said…
but see, thats where the disconnect is for me because i NEVER experienced this “guilt and manipulation” that I read so much of on here. since we’re talking about ESOAL specifically, all I saw regarding this was Dave always saying that although he believes ESOAL would be beneficial, it is completely optional and you have to decide for yourself if it is something you should do or not. I had I think about 3 of my coremates who decided to not to ESOAL and there was never any negative feelings towards them for that. I mean, it was their personal decision, it was no big deal.
And as far as ringing out, for which I was one of those people, I remember dave taking my hand as i was crying and looking me in the eyes and telling me how proud he was of me for finishing.
so, no i never saw this guilt or manipulation to get desired results, especially not from dave.
June 30, 2010 6:38 PM
Jami Carter said…
I’m glad you never experienced the guilt or manipulation. I never really dealt with it either, not from staff members at least. I got plenty of rude and nasty comments from other interns about my reasons for not participating in ESOAL (my reason being that it was totally… asinine)… but I was immune to them. Blame my stubbornness. I finally got sick of the peer induced guilt trips… and just told everyone who bothered me about it that I’d be thinking about them while I enjoyed a cheeseburger from the Dairy Palace in their honor. But then I was being rebellious 🙂 You just can’t win sometimes.
Again, this is something that fellow interns were doing. And while Dave may not be directly responsible for every mean and snide thing an intern says… he is responsible for the culture and atmosphere of the Honor Academy, where manipulation and guilt (and legalism) run rampant.
June 30, 2010 7:52 PM
shouldcareless said…
“but see, thats where the disconnect is for me because i NEVER experienced this “guilt and manipulation” that I read so much of on here.”
Of COURSE you didn’t. You did ESOAL. Why would they guilt or manipulate the willing?
ESOAL is abusive. It is unsafe. It is entirely reckless. It needs to stop. End of story.
June 30, 2010 9:42 PM
Shannon Kish said…
Sarah,
Huntsville Airport in conjunction with Redstone Arsenal has a history of putting on an annual air show that has a great following. Two years ago during the event a tent caved in and killed a child. Since that time, neither Huntsville Airport nor the Arsenal have put on an air show.
I give you this illustration because while the air show had a great following and a lot of visitors benefited and enjoyed the show, the show had to be canceled for subsequent years due to the death of a child at the air show.
ESOAL is a great benefit to many interns, I will give you that. ESOAL also produces a HIGH number of injuries every year. So, we have to balance out physical safety and emotional/spiritual benefits. I think that physical safety holds the trump card in that balancing act.
June 30, 2010 10:18 PM
sarah said…
i understand that as well, but i think comparing spraining an ankle during esoal to a child being killed is a little much. you don’t see every high school closing down their sports programs, cheerleading, marching bands, etc. when a few people get some minor injuries. when you choose to participate in a physically demanding activity then you are taking the risk of being injured, plain and simple. i’m not downplaying those who were injured, all i’m saying is that it’s not abnormal and it certainly does not warrant shutting down esoal for good.
June 30, 2010 11:09 PM
sarah said…
@shouldcareless i was talking about experiencing the guilt and manipulation at the HA in general. but yes, i did participate in esoal, but i also didn’t make my decision until the last minute b/c i wasn’t sure if i wanted to do it. mainly b/c i was out of shape and not very keen on physical activity, and that whole time until i decided i didn’t want to miss out on it i never came across anyone who tried to guilt-trip me or manipulate me into doing it. now, with that being said, i’m not saying this isn’t done. i believe, like jami said, most of this is done by fellow interns or the not-so-good GI leaders and that is where i agree that the HA needs to restructure the way they choose and train their GI leadership.
you said “esoal is abusive. it is unsafe. it is entirely reckless. it needs to stop. end of story.” i can totally respect your opinion of esoal, and i can assume, though i may be wrong, that you didn’t have such a good experience with esoal. but at the same time i ask that you also respect my opinion and my experience with esoal and realize that it was not all bad for everyone, and it made a huge impact on the lives of a lot of the interns. i’m all for finding a compromise to make esoal safer, choose better facilitators who aren’t power hungry, etc….but, to be blunt, i think it is stubborn of you to refuse to accept that esoal has had a good impact on hundreds, if not thousands, of people. instead of one half saying “esoal is great! nothing needs to change!” and the other half saying…”esoal is abusive! we need to get rid of it!”….i think we should meet in the middle and figure out a way to make it better without taking away the event entirely.
June 30, 2010 11:22 PM
layne said…
“And as far as ringing out, for which I was one of those people, I remember dave taking my hand as i was crying and looking me in the eyes and telling me how proud he was of me for finishing.”
I just don’t see how this proves any positive point. He made you cry and then told you he was proud of you? How is this not spiritual abuse?
July 1, 2010 8:44 AM
LizBR said…
Layne, that reminds me of the new show, “Losing it with Jillian.” She verbally abuses people as they exercise, and then when they finally break down, she gives them a hug and tells them how much she cares about them. The participants are pushed to the edge of emotional stability, and then the very person who mistreated them comes and gives them a hug and says all these wonderful things.
It’s not a healthy way of relating to people. It makes them emotionally dependent upon your praise, even as you belittle and mistreat them.
July 1, 2010 8:57 AM
jami c. said…
Sarah,
The difference between a high school program and Teen Mania is that the high school would be legally required to take responsibility for any injuries that happened as a result of negligence on their staff’s part.
You hear of many instances where football players die or are seriously injured as a direct result of a coach “forcing” them to exercise in dangerous conditions or simply denying them water until they can complete some task. In these situations, the coaches are usually ostracized and let go, and the schools are held responsible and MUST make some form of attempt at compensation.
Instead we have Teen Mania. Getting young people to pay them thousands of dollars to participate in their prestigious program, and then allowing them to suffer injury, malnourishment, abuse (physical, mental and spiritual) and then leaving them with ridiculous doctor bills. Hey, even better if the interns have to leave the internship due to said injuries, malnourishment and abuse… since Teen Mania is not legally obligated to refund them their tuition.
It’s a serious problem.
ESOAL IS abusive. I’m glad that you were able to… gain something… or grow through being abused, but that doesn’t make it right, or the experience good in and of itself. Last year I suffered a miscarriage, and while it has definitely produced in me new depth, understanding and a greater sense of compassion, the experience itself was incredibly painful, and in spite of the good things that happened in me as a result of the ordeal, I still can’t help but wish that the Lord had spared my family those months of sorrow.
July 1, 2010 1:55 PM
