Conference Call: ESOAL

Several questions were asked about ESOAL throughout the conference call.

@ 15:55 – Dave says that ESOAL has changed dramatically. In the early years, the entire group stayed together, but “as a result of that way of doing ESOAL”, there were a lot of GIs and even staff member who got “power hungry” and acted like “drill sergeants.” However, now they are broken up into smaller groups called companies and platoons.

First off, I can’t imagine why the facilitators acted like drill sergeants. I mean, its not like this event is based on the extreme military training during Navy Seals Hell Week.

Second, this idea doesn’t make sense to me – wouldn’t there be more opportunity for “power hungry” staff and GIs to act like “drill sergeants” when they each oversee their own group instead of all being together?
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@ 16:27 – “I heard stories of people being required to eat crickets or things like this that were just totally unacceptable. So as I was hearing these concerns, I have totally restructured ESOAL.”

Really? This happened in 2008, supposedly after you “totally restructured” ESOAL. When a GI asked you about it, just a few short months ago, it seems that the only reason this was unacceptable is your concern that someone would blog about it, not that its actually an unacceptable activity. Watch the video to see for yourself.
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@ 33:10 – Dave says 24/7 there are medical professionals on hand; medic is set up in the auditorium.

If that is the case, why are there so many severe injuries? At least some of which go untreated?? How many medics are on hand? Is it enough for the 500 people doing the event?

In addition, I would suggest that the event ITSELF is unsafe, no matter how many medics are on hand. In 2008, at least one intern developed meningitis from the water and had to be quarantined for 5 weeks (at great expense and TM did not contribute a nickel).
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@ 58:40 – We tell people to say, “It pays to be a winner and you are a loser,” because it is emotionally challenging to say that. We quit doing it b/c everyone was winking and laughing about it.

So, Dave still endorses this type of verbal harassment. The only reason they quit doing it is that it is no longer harassing enough. Wonder what he’ll come up with next?
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@ 2:00:16 – During Hurricane Katrina there were about 10 individuals that we were taking their temperature every hour on the hour. If you couldn’t maintain a temperature above 97 degrees, you got taken inside, wrapped up in blankets and given hot soup. If you couldn’t get your temperature back up within an hour, you were told, “You’re finished. You can’t keep going.”

One alumnus wrote to me the following day about this particular statement. She wanted to give another side to the story. She mentions that she never saw the so-called blankets and hot soup…but of course its possible that this happened and she just didn’t see it. Nevertheless, I think she raises some important questions:

“He specifically referenced the ESOAL that took place during hurricane Katrina. This was in 2005 and I had just moved back to the Tyler area. I was a facilitator that ESOAL. In the conference call last night, Dave said that they were constantly checking participants’ temps with thermometers and if they got to low they would be sent inside, wrapped up in blankets and given hot soup. I was there the entire weekend from start to finish. The only time I was not out with the participants was a few hours a night to sleep and once in the afternoon for an hour or two to dry my clothes. Yes, participants were asked to step forward if they felt like they were freezing and their temps were checked with a thermometer. However, I never once saw blankets or hot soup handed out. It wasn’t just raining, it was raining SIDEWAYS. I was in my lil army fatigues and big rain jacket and I was soaked! (hence the reason having to go stick my clothes in the dryer one afternoon) It would have been pointless to hand out blankets since it was raining. Participants were brought inside to the SAC as a whole group once or twice during the day. Blankets were not handed out, large black trash bags were. They were instructed to wear it like a poncho and kinda breathe into it, their warm breathe contained by the plastic bag would help raise back up their body temp. Whatever, my point is Dave states over and over again that he keeps ESOAL safe and then list examples. Well, how is refusing to cancel or post pone an event DURING A HURRICANE safe? And then saying blankets, soup was passed out when I never witnessed that while I was there that year. I specifically remember being out in the sand pit one afternoon as participants ran the obstacle course over and over again. The rain and wind was insane! I was holding down one of the posts to a tent (the portable kind that just has a roof and no walls) trying to keep it from blowing away. We had 1-2 facilitators at each pole. Didn’t do much good though since it was literally raining sideways. I was completely soaked even with a rain jacket on. Participants were shivering and huddled together. As some of them came forward to get their temps checked as long as they did not have hypothermia (I guess there was a set temp. to go by) they were allowed to continue. At one point a pickup truck was driven down into the sand pit, left running, hood popped up, and facilitators would have the shivering participants huddled around the engine for warmth. They rotated the participants like every 10 mins or so. This is when I thought to myself this is absolutely ridiculous. What would it take for leadership to cancel this event? How could anyone think that running around outside during a hurricane is safe?

Lastly, I will never forget one participant. He was either a GI or just an alumni returning to do the event. He was forced to ring out because he was so cold. He was hysterical because he wanted to continue. Two things come to mind here: 1. The facilitators did do a good job protecting his health but having him ring out. [Well sort of, he never should have been put in that situation in the first place] 2. I will never forget how hysterical he was about being forced to ring out. So again, why are the participants felt like ESOAL is so important to finish, even at the risk of their own health?!”

62 comments:

Moriahsays:July 15, 2010 at 7:37 AM

It is my opinion that Dave’s words about this ESOAL are both dishonest and cowardly.

yeah…doing ESOAL during a hurricane is pretty UFB…I don’t know why they would think that was at all acceptable. I’m sure the parents loved that.

Renaesays:July 15, 2010 at 9:15 AM

I was at the next ESOAL, which took place during hurricane Rita (sense a pattern?) I never saw anyone taking temperatures, and I never was asked to allow my temperature to be taken. I remember sleeping in the SAC one night because it was so bad out. What I really remember though, is Dave Hasz saying something along the lines of, “It has to be a lot colder out for you to die of hypothermia! You’re just uncomfortable!”

Anonymoussays:July 15, 2010 at 9:26 AM

Don’t normal people find basements to hide out in during storms like that????

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 9:34 AM

Renae- his logic is confusing, because for my ESOAL (in 2007), it was almost (over?) 100 degrees outside, and a few people STILL got hypothermia (from the dry ice in the trench/pond thing).

Maybe they wouldn’t have died or anything, but they still got hypo’d. WHEN IT WAS HOT OUTSIDE.

I just don’t get it.

Juliesays:July 15, 2010 at 10:23 AM

It doesn’t seem to be in the interns best interest that they self-report injuries and hypothermia. Because they are determined to finish, they have low incentive to report health problems that will force them to ring out! If there is a concern about hypothermia from weather conditions, they should be taking everyone’s temp, so no one who really IS freezing can try to tough it out. Also, if a facilitator sees someone potentially injure an ankle, leg, etc., it should be mandatory to send them to a medic immediately and have them checked out before they can continue. TM has to take more responsibility for the participants’ health, because the event itself causes interns to downplay injuries and sickness so they won’t be forced to quit! How can you rely on participants to self-report when they have strong motivation to ignore issues that may prevent them from finishing?

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 10:55 AM

^ That reminds me.

Hasz was talking about how he doesn’t really think God will tell interns to ring out. One example was if an intern came to ring out and said (paraphrased), “You know, I’m in this for the wrong reason- my motivation’s wrong.” (my guess would be that this “wrong” motivation were to finish, or to prove to themselves that they can do it, etc)

Hasz said that they should repent, and then go back into it with the right motivation.

My question is- what IS the right motivation?

Can there be a right motivation with all the hype surrounding the event?

… You know, I think there is. I actually think that most interns have their heart in the “right” place to do ESOAL.

But is it a healthy place?

Maurice Mosssays:July 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM

Just to point out a quick factual error: ESOAL 2005 was during Hurricane Rita, not Katrina. Katrina happened a few weeks prior, and it did not hit Texas that hard. Rita, on the other hand, hit Texas harder, and happened the weekend of ESOAL 2005.

This leads me to believe Renae was actually a part of the same ESOAL that the OP was talking about, not a different one. As far as I know, there has only been one ESOAL during a hurricane.

Carry on.

Anonymoussays:July 15, 2010 at 11:01 AM

Dave Hasz
If you are reading this, I hope you weep in sorrow and regret.

Oh thats right, you only experience emotions if you are worried about it directly affecting your status and position at Teen Mania.

you. make. me. sick.

Justj33says:July 15, 2010 at 11:21 AM

i don’t know why your guys experiences with esoal differ from mine.

I did it in 2004. what I specifically remember dave telling us before esoal was to go as far as God wants us to go. if we felt as if we had finished and gotten what we went to it get that we should ring out. I never felt pressured to finish.


I do however remember the whole…bring on thing Dave had going before esoal. ( i didn’t do it. those who did were forced to wear little dresses during esoal.)

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 11:25 AM

Anon 11:01,

Unfortunately, I think that comment would have the opposite effect on him. 🙁 I think he might laugh to himself instead…

That’s not saying that he’s evil or anything, but he’s really convinced that the HA is right and healthy and good.

If I were so deeply convinced that I were doing such a GREAT thing (when I wasn’t), and somebody were vulnerable enough to share how deeply my actions were hurting them and others, I would probably chuckle and shrug it off as “persecution”.

Such fervent “vision” and “purpose” can get in the way of human relations, I think. Sorry to be a wet blanket 🙁 I hope this doesn’t come across as insensitive, cause that’s not what I want at all…

Anonymoussays:July 15, 2010 at 11:41 AM

hey nunquam.
this is anon 11.01

Fortunately for me, that comment is probably more what I need to say than actually thinking or hoping Dave reads it.

I think anger and disgust are valid emotions in light of this whole thing.
Dave Hasz is a jerk, no doubt.
Whether or not he accepts this about himself is his issue not mine. I am just happy to be able to express what I feel through writing.

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Hey Anon 🙂

Let it be said that I TOTALLY agree with you. I wasn’t trying to discount anything you said at all, and I’m sorry that it probably came across this way (writing between calls at work… I’m not so good with making words make sense).

And expressing yourself in an honest way is good and healthy, I agree with you there too! I don’t think there was anything wrong with what you said at all; I just wanted to throw in my two cents and what I thought about it. 😛

Sorry again that I miscommunicated. I do this often! 😉

Anonymoussays:July 15, 2010 at 1:15 PM

nunquam!
no problem. actually, your comment was totally fine! I just wanted to re-iterate how much he bothers me as a person and even more as a so called spiritual leader . Finally being able to think this and say this is what I need.

participant2005says:July 15, 2010 at 2:47 PM

I was part of ESOAL 2005 with Hurricane Rita, and I know for a fact that there were a lot of interns (myself included) who refused to go and get their temperatures checked even though we were so cold because of the stigma of being forced to ring out.

> “…the stigma of being forced to ring out.”

Can we point to this the next time one of the Pro-TM flamers says “ESOAL is totally optional”? Thanks.

@Nunquam Honorablus – Just a quick factual update, I was on the team that managed the dry ice/cattle dip thing. We monitored the temperature of the water at all times, and even tested it out ourselves before allowing any participant to get in the water. It felt pretty colder than it was because it was so hot out. That’s actually one of the reasons we did it… to help cool the participants down.

Secondly, as for the Rita ESOAL in 2005, that was my first time facilitating (after participating twice before). We DID make a participant ring out (I know him personally) because his temperature was too low. He wanted to continue because, as cold as he was, he wanted to make sure his team was ok. ESOAL isn’t about the individual nearly as much as it is about the team.

Also, as for hot soup? Yes. It was passed out in the SAC if I remember correctly.

@Justj33, I went through ESOAL in 2004 as well and I agree with you. I haven’t finished either time I participated.

Maybe #3 is my lucky number as I prepare to participate for the 3rd time this September.

Brandon, I can appreciate that some safety precautions are taken, but the fact remains that, as a whole, ESOAL IS NOT SAFE: physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually. You can deny that all you want, but the FACTS remain. I’m glad you don’t feel personally injured, but many peopler have been. ESOAL uses commonly known brainwashing techniques. It is NEVER safe to use brainwashing techniques, no matter how noble the goal is.

Every time someone tells me ESOAL is safe, its like they are saying, “Look, the emperor is wearing beautiful clothes!!” All I see is naked old man. And it ain’t pretty.

confused anonsays:July 15, 2010 at 5:19 PM

ESOAL 2005 was my ESOAL, and I can honestly tell you I remember NONE of what Dave was talking about ever, ever happening.

I was freezing. It was for real raining sideways, just like the email said–and I was one of the unlucky “bring it on” folks. By the time they called my number to give my my red shirt, they had run out of regular sizes, and I ended up with a men’s XXL [I’m quite a petite girl]–so the shirt was horrifically large, and the pouring, whipping rain would carry that shirt and flap it against my soaking body so it felt like a whip. it was awful.

at one point i was shaking so badly that i did go up to hoover over the truck engine to get warm–and then got rotated out when another handful of interns came out. i went back to the sandpit and ran the OC a few more times, and then we went into “the moves”–this was the point that I collapsed and couldn’t get up, and my fingernails and lips were blue. They took me up to the nurse [i think it was a nurse? i never knew for sure] who took my temp, and at 87 degrees, told me in no uncertain terms that i couldn’t continue. i cried, and begged her to let me stand by the truck and warm up…but she told me i couldn’t.

and then i walked back to the dorms in the pouring rain, by myself, and sat in a scalding hot shower for what felt like an eternity.

i remember no soup or blankets. none.

Justj33says:July 15, 2010 at 5:21 PM

I think esoal and the Ha experience is one in the same, some go through and get hurt while others go through unscathed. it’s a mystery but it happens.

bout the brainwashing bit…I dunno if I can agree with that I mean as interns our beliefs would had to of changed in what it is the Ha wanted us to believe. and that didn’t happen. I still believe in the same things now as I did before. I dunno, you would have to prove that they intend to change your way of thinking.

Anonymoussays:July 15, 2010 at 5:39 PM

Just33– if you believed exactly what they wanted you to believe there would be no brainwashing needed in your case it may have been done before.

I’ve posted it before, but This is a list of “coercive persuasion techniques” as listed by a cult awareness group. They are common to many of the more extreme cults–and ESOAL.

The proof of brainwashing (by the criteria of changed beliefs) is that interns think that cult-style manipulation techniques are healthy and positive. This is a priori indoctrination to an unrealistic belief.

In my opinion, ESOAL is where Honor Academy crosses the line into all-out Cult territory.

Hi, Brandon. I have a question. From what I understand, dry ice is always to be handled with some sort of protective gear — gloves, an oven mit, a towel, etc. How, then, is it safe to have people go through water full of dry ice, when exposure to the material creates what is essentially a burn?

http://www.dryiceinfo.com/safe.htm states: “Always handle Dry Ice with care and wear protective cloth or leather gloves whenever touching it. An oven mitt or towel will work. If touched briefly it is harmless, but prolonged contact with the skin will freeze cells and cause injury similar to a burn.”

Obviously that is directly handling dry ice, but I can’t imagine where someone would think that it would be a good idea to put it in water and make people swim/walk through it.

If you were on the facilitating team, do you know who came up with this idea, and what research was done before deciding it was okay to expose interns to this risk?

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 8:24 PM

Brandon- cool story bro, but the fact doesn’t change that people got hypothermia (a guy in my brother core included).

Even if safety measures are taken, there was obviously still a problem.

Furthermore, to my knowledge, if somebody is overheated, it is a very BAD idea to put them into a super-cold environment. Example- instead of a cold shower, an overheated individual is advised to take a lukewarm shower instead, so as to not throw their body into shock. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.

Even if the temperatures were regulated, I doubt highly that DRY ice was a necessity (especially since, according to the guys in my core, some of them were made to STAND in the truck that was full of dry ice… again, correct me if I’m wrong).

I think I’m just a little confused here.

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 15, 2010 at 8:26 PM

LOOKIT ME GUYS I have to redundantly use the word “instead” twice.

Redundantly.

I finished ESOAL 2005. I remember the truck and trying to get warm from it. I remember my temperature being taken. I don’t remember the soup but I want to say Dave did mention something about warming up the people who’s temp dropped below a certain temperature (I don’t remember what it was). All I remember is even with given the opportunity to sit inside for an hour, I couldn’t stop shivering. That weekend was horrific. It was cold, rainy and windy.

I mainly want to know what the heck Esapoopoo is for. I keep hearing it’s about ‘defeating your flesh!’ or something, but… it seems like that’s Jesus’ job?

I’m not docking the merits of leadership helping you get there, but eating ice cream full of maggots seems like a retarded way of going about it. And THAT is straight from 2007, people. MAGGOTS. And that if you didn’t want to eat it, you’re “letting your flesh rule you” and you need to just “get over yourself”.

Ug. Esapoopoo disgusts me, from it’s very foundation. Don’t forget how interns are usually peer pressured into it. My sister told me she wasn’t going to, then next thing I know, she’s signing up. “Why the heck are you doing this? It sounds stupid!” and she couldn’t give me a straight answer. I later find out that she kept getting confronted by people asking her where her ‘heart is’, and why she didn’t want to defeat her flesh.

Good NIGHT. No, it wasn’t Dave Hasz himself attacking her and twisting her into doing it, but he certainly made interns feel like if you weren’t YOU ARE FULL OF YOURSELF AND NAMBY PAMBY. Gross.

@Nunquam Honorablus: We used dry ice for the smoke effect. Honestly? Probably not something that you’ll see at ESOAL again… we thought it would melt a lot faster than it did, so we took the dry ice out (had to submerge a few facilitators to do so) and replaced it with icecubes from the Cafe. At no time was the water shockingly cold, and this was confirmed and monitored by a medic.

As for being in a truck full of dry ice? We had boxes of brick sized cubes (I think 12 of them) and no participants were allowed near them. We used protective gear for obvious reasons.

@Cesna Those weren’t maggots. They were mealworms. I facilitated the 2007 ESOAL and (total honesty here) was one of the people managing the food relay. I even ate a few of the mealworms myself. Totally safe and healthy.

I keep hearing that ESOAL isn’t safe and it’s so bad for everyone. I keep hearing the cult word thrown around. A cult by definition is any unit of people who impose or encourage a certain set of beliefs. A college, sport team, family unit, or group experience can all fall in to this definition.

Brandon, that is not the definiton of a cult. Did you just make that up?

My thought is that Dave did NOT use good judgment in 2005 based on these stories. His UGJ doesn’t apply to him and the ministry I guess?

ICSA (the International Cultic Studies Association) has some good resources on defining and understanding the “cult” word at the link. It’s worth a perusal.

Justj33says:July 16, 2010 at 3:11 PM

again here…I was there in 04’05 during that time before esoal Dave constantly said it was optional. that you didn’t have to do it. I wasn’t pressured in to it. I never felt that I was in any danger during it.

many of you are reading way to far in to a simple experience. yea it’s extreme but I didn’t pay all that money to sit around and have a bible study. I paid for an experience of a life time and thats what I got.

besides what’s the big deal about eating gross stuff, I mean in my youth group we had games like that and the young people really enjoyed. none were force to participate they just wanted to.
that what happen at ha. interns just wanted to esoal. no one need to give an explanation for it.

justj33 – wow, just wow.

The difference between a youth group game and ESOAL:

Youth Pastor: The first team to eat all this gross food wins!
Teen: This is disgusting! I can’t eat this!
Youth Pastor: Hahahaha. Guess the other team wins. Nice try! Let’s all go have some ice cream.

Compared to…

GI: Eat this gross food. All things are possible through Christ!
Intern: That’s really disgusting, I can’t eat that!
GI: You need to rely on Jesus more…anything is possible with God.
Intern: But I REALLY can’t eat this…it will make me sicker than I already am.
GI: You just need to trust God more.


See the difference? One is a silly game, and the other is clearcut spiritual abuse.

JustMesays:July 16, 2010 at 11:18 PM

Hypothermia can absolutely happen at not even that low of temperatures and require medical treatment at a hospital. I ended up with hypothermia after a few hours of Swiftwater Rescue Team training in early September in Central Texas when it wasn’t even that chilly out and had to be taken to the ER. I can’t imagine if I’d participated in ESOAL, especially in 2005.

Hypothermia can happen at ANY temperature. Hypothermia occurs when your body is unable to regulate and remain homeostatic. You core temp is around 95. If it drops below that for any reason, you are considered to have hypothermia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia

Now, for your viewing pleasure-

Car Survivor- www.carsurvivor.com 5 people stuck in a 2004 Honda Accord fighting to be the last person remaining in the car.

This is a live feed from Huntsville, AL. It is addicting to watch. It is like ESOAL for people who want a 2004 car!

Carrie Saumsays:July 16, 2010 at 11:44 PM

“many of you are reading way to far in to a simple experience. yea it’s extreme but I didn’t pay all that money to sit around and have a bible study.”

so, not to sound snarky or rude, but which was it? simple or extreme?

also, medics are NOT doctors. (this is coming from a trained paramedic.) we don’t know everything. we know what is in a text book, and we know what we’ve seen. to rely solely on that is just negligent. everyone’s body reacts differently to different situations. there are so many contributing factors to hypothermia that can enhance the effects of that condition. like, physical and emotional shock, which many participants in esoal experience continuously. shock allows us to stay alive. our adrenaline kicks in. this is mostly an involuntary response to extreme stressors. it is also a highly damaging state to be in for prolonged periods of time (prolonged meaning, more than one hour.)

also, if someone has a low thyroid, their body temperature is already MUCH lower than the average person. hormone imbalances, eating disorders, phobias, anemia, hypoglycemia, adrenal fatigue, anxiety, mild sickness, and many other conditions can add to the hypothermic condition.

ESOAL is dangerous, and really for NO GOOD PURPOSE. TM continues to be reckless with the health and well-being of the participants. it is IMPOSSIBLE for TM to keep track of 500 interns’ physical health with only one or two medics, especially in the environmental conditions they create. this type of thing is meant for military personnel who have been screened, tested, and prepped for this. it is not meant for civilians who have no idea what they are doing, and how lasting the damage will be to an adolescent’s psyche.

Nunquam Honorablussays:July 16, 2010 at 11:46 PM

Brandon- okay, I’ll give you that. I’m not gonna lie; if I were in ESOAL by that point, I would think the smoke effect was pretty awesome and it’d probably be the highlight of the event. I’m a sucker for cinematics; you got me there 😉

I really enjoyed ESOAL. =)

Renaesays:July 17, 2010 at 12:04 PM

Maurice Moss–

Thanks…I was almost positive I had done ESOAL in 2005, but I was more sure it was during hurricane Rita because of the big deal they made about us being “tough” enough to survive RITA ESOAL. Thanks for confirming I wasn’t going crazy.

@Recovering Alumni – According to the International Cultic Studies Association “A cult is an ideological organization, held together by charismatic relationships, and demanding high levels of commitment.”

Sounds like a church group, the military, most colleges, sports teams, families, or even a WoW clan can fall into the definition of a cult.

Yes, a certain percentage of participants feel harmed by either the program or individuals within TM. I’m not denying it and it sucks. It really does. But for those of us that had overall great experiences and (for me personally) a life changing encounter with God, it hurts me to see a place I cherish referred to as a “cult”. What are you saying about me?

Brandon – If that is all the knowledge you gained from visiting the ICSA website, you are either blind or being deliberately obtuse. Just click the links on the page for tons of info that supports my methods and conclusions.

http://icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/faq_whatisacult.asp

What am I saying about you? I’m not saying anything about you personally. You had a great experience? Awesome. Why are you hanging around here. This is a support group for those who were damaged.

Or, in the words of the ICSA from the very page you quoted:

“Different people respond differently to the same cultic environment. “

Ahhh my bad. Mealworms. Only slightly less gross.

Yeah, I’m… very confused by people who continue to stick around and berate people who have had trauma to deal with. The abuse they went through is clear. Stop prolonging the abuse by denying them their emotions and the truth. Goodness.

I would suspect that if just937497369048 was so eager to jump on the ESadoodoo train, she didn’t see how people were constantly pressured into doing it. How DH says “I wish EVERY Christian could go through it!” and how interns are encouraged to confront each other about heart conditions.

Just because you didn’t see the peer pressure doesn’t mean it didn’t happen behind the scenes.

@Brandon– Wait. First you say that any social organization can be defined as a “cult,” then you say “it hurts me to see a place I cherish referred to as a “cult”. But if “cult” is supposedly just a term that can equally describe colleges, sports teams, and online games, then why do you see it as hurtful? You can’t have it both ways.

Maybe you’d get on better with Dictionary.com‘s definition: “A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.” By that definition, WoW is certainly not a cult, and Honor Academy… well, can you at least see why I invoke the word?

“What are you saying about me?” Nothing, but since you mention it I’d say I can’t help noticing your technique of reading an objective observation about a group as a personal attack on you. That smells suspiciously like manipulation.

What ICSA might say about you: “Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused.” But those who have been harmed by the program (as you don’t deny) have every right to discuss and evaluate their experiences and raise awareness of the associated issues– wouldn’t you agree?

I have a good friend that defines HA as ‘cult-lite’ haha. Makes me want to photoshop it onto a soda can.

Justj33says:July 20, 2010 at 7:05 AM

I think the “cult” term can be offensive to some because, or a least with me when I think of word “cult” I think of Charles Manson,Jim Jones,Marshall Applewhite just to name a few. I think to myself how in the world can you equate the HA to those cults? I mean really? I don’t think if RL asked the Interns to commit mass suicide because he though Jesus was coming back today they would actually do it. I mean it’s asinine.

Maybe, Some of the things done at TM can be seen as cultic, but as whole I don’t think TM fits in to that mold as a cult.

but still it’s a freaky thought to equate TM with cult. especially when you think about those other crazy cults.

Anonymoussays:July 20, 2010 at 7:14 AM

I was an Intern during the Hurrican ESOAL. It was actually Hurrican Rita. Many interns had dropping temperatures. My temperature alone dropped below 97 and I was told to go into the Gym. No one was there but three other people and one blanket so the 4 of us huddled as much as we could under it.

I also remember that facilitators were passing out trashbags for warmth, but they ran out just as they got to me. The facilitator looked at me and said “If you’re cold, ring out.” and laughed walking away.

Justj33 – this is the last time I’ll let your comment through w/o some sort of facts backing it up. Just b/c you are uncomfortable with the word cult, doesn’t mean anything….There are many criteria that help define a cult, plus there is a scale of “cultness.” Educate yourself.

Anon @ 7:14am – that is a story that needs to be told. Please send me an email!

CarrieSaumsays:July 20, 2010 at 2:45 PM

I found this article today.

I especially resonated with the last bit about “breaking” people, and Jillian, your story really drove this home.

http://www.cultwatch.com/mctb.html

also, @Justj33 ~ there doesn’t have to be a suicide or murder pact in order for the term “cult” to apply. i echo RA on this one — please educate yourself.

@EricP “…those who have been harmed by the program (as you don’t deny) have every right to discuss and evaluate their experiences and raise awareness of the associated issues– wouldn’t you agree?”

I completely agree. But raising issues requires 2-way conversation. Without that “second voice”, this site only turns in to a place where people can talk about issues, but never have any opportunity to see those issues resolved.

This seems especially true with this latest blog update – http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/07/this-is-refuge-not-debate.html

I’m not debating the validity of the stories here, but if no one can ask questions, or even respond to allegations (like maggots during ESOAL, they were mealworms), then nobody gets to experience healing.

Brandon – I disagree with the premise that people telling their stories here need to be questioned in order to see healing. That is just plain wrong. And it shows me that you have probably never gone through a recovery process like the rest of us. Clearly, we are operating from two very different premises here. And since its my blog, guess who wins?

And as far as seeing the issues resolved? Well, I’ve already said that I’ve fulfilled my responsibilities according to Matthew 18. Its not our job to change TM (and we aren’t trying to anymore!)

I’m still making that poopy head RA blog. As soon as I figure out how to work the interbutts.

Anonymoussays:July 20, 2010 at 8:49 PM

Re: WoW…it’s a guild…not a clan GAH!

Justj33says:July 20, 2010 at 10:56 PM

come on guys seriously, I mean really you don’t think of those individuals when you hear “cult”?
I do. and I’m probably not the only one here who does.


ok, ok so I’m the uneducated one here. However I’m not the only one. so what would you recommend that I read to educate my self.

Justj33 – the International Cultic Studies Association website; the posts “Is TM a Cult?”; and the spiritual abuse resources at http://pureprovender.blogspot.com are a good start

It’s not cult, it’s cult-lite!

Renaesays:July 21, 2010 at 8:26 PM

Brandon, I would recommend learning more about recovery ministry as a whole before insisting our stories need to be “questioned.” As RA said, if you’ve never been involved in recovery ministry (REAL recovery ministry, not a weekend “BE HEALED” retreat or an especially emotional altar call), then it’s very likely you’ll misunderstand the steps we are taking along the road to recovery. In a recovery group, when someone is telling their story, NO ONE is allowed to comment. At all. No skepticism, no advice…nothing. The leaders sometimes ask questions to bring out more of the story, but never question the validity. The leaders then pray, or will offer some advice if it’s wanted, but they are trained to handle those situations. It’s hard enough for some of us to tell our stories without having to argue the truthfulness or endure pseudo advice from untrained though probably well meaning people on the sidelines.

http://desertstream.org/ is a good place to start to research recovery ministry. It’s a process, not something that happens overnight. It takes months…years. Think AA. It’s more like that than a logical conclusion to “not let it bother me anymore.”

Justj33, with education comes understanding. You won’t just think of those names when you hear “cult” after reading up on them, just like educated Americans don’t automatically think “terrorist” when they hear the word “Muslim.”

Anonymoussays:July 26, 2010 at 5:01 AM

With my TM experience, there were indeed ups and downs. I did ESOAL in 2008 as an intern and I ended up blowing out my hip. After blowing out my hip, I was given some medication and I was given the choice to continue or ring out. I continued because I felt that if I didn’t, something bad might happen. I ended up ringing out 12 hours after hurting my hip. I was escorted to the medic tent where someone drove me up to the freezing ESOAL showers, but I had to walk back to the dorms by myself. After 2 hours of walking back to the dorms, my hip was in so much pain that I just laid on the floor and cried. No one was there to help me and that for me was worse than ESOAL itself. My hip hurts still to this day and will always be a reminder. Yes it was my choice to enter and continue through ESOAL, but I do believe that my choice was significantly influenced by the atmosphere/people around me. I have plenty more tales to tell and I’m sure the Lord will put it on my heart to share them someday.

CarrieSaumsays:July 26, 2010 at 5:25 PM

@ anon 5:01

i am so incredibly sorry to hear this. nobody should have to suffer as you did when there is help available. i hope you are able to verbalize and share more pieces of your story someday.

as a trained paramedic, we are taught to NEVER leave our charges until we can hand them over to someone with a higher certification or training than us (usually a doctor or PA). whoever ditched you at the showers should be ashamed.

i just don’t understand how people can continue to say that ESOAL is safe, and that all participants are 100% free to choose the experience. it is so damaging.

Anonymoussays:November 1, 2011 at 2:48 PM

I was there in 2005 as an intern, ESOAL was hard but not life threatening. I rang out two hours before it ended because of trench foot. Nasty business. All in all though, I would have done it again!

Trench Foot?! As I understand it, that’s caused by a lack of simple safety and sanitary practices in unsuitably bad weather conditions. “If left untreated, trench foot usually results in gangrene, which can cause the need for amputation” (Wikipedia). That’s reckless endangerment on TM’s part!

I’m sure you would have done it again– ESOAL intentionally manipulates people to have precisely that response– but my question is why TM felt the need for you to do it in the first place. Lots of people have learned to depend on God without endangering any of their limbs.

As the OP rightly asked, “Why are the participants felt like ESOAL is so important to finish, even at the risk of their own health?!”