I remember hearing about GUTS while I was at Teen Mania because it was one of the big churches in Tulsa. In fact, there are at least 2 former Honor Academy interns on staff at GUTS church.
Chris Hart, former Trailer Club man, is on staff at GUTS and served as the Campus Plant Director for the Sub30 ministry – the department responsible for the illegal boxing matches.
The day before the fight, Sub30 tweeted this message:
RT @travislpeters: Like watching people get punched in the face? Of course! FIGHT NIGHT tonight at @sub30tulsa 8pm, $5. See ya there.
Apparently, you could also upgrade to ringside tickets for $50 as well.
As a reminder, this is actually a church event.
Now, I don’t know who came up with this idea or what twisted way they could possibly come up with to justify this as an even remotely Christian activity…but I wonder – is it possible that the (former?) head of the Sub30 ministry was influenced by Heath Stoner’s trailer club teachings? After all, we know that in the past Teen Mania has held its own underground boxing matches.
This is just one of ten available videos, chosen at random.
Regardless of the specific details about where this idea originated, this tragic situation brings two grave concerns to mind:
1) When will the church realize that being a godly man has nothing – NOTHING! – to do with beating people up or demonstrating your physical strength?
2) How long will Teen Mania continue its dangerous activities before it changes? Does someone have to actually die before they will stop?? We already know that at least one person nearly died and that seems to have changed nothing.
Where is the sense in all this? Where is the Christianity? Where is the love?
38 comments:
the guy in the dark shorts was my first core advisor
This might be a ridiculous question, but what exactly was Trailer Club?
Was that a Guts fight or was that a Teen Mania fight?
Teen Mania fight.
I get what you’re saying overall about how a Godly man has nothing to do with physical strength, and it’s sad what happened at GUTS, but what does this have to do with Teen Mania? I feel you linked it back only cuz that one guy was once an intern. You linked it back because you have a hunch that he was influenced by Heath’s teachings…
I feel like you really stretched this one. Can you explain how this relates to the HA?
Anonymous – I thought it was worth blogging because of the similarities in theology and practice between the two organizations.
They are both on the same trajectory and I would HATE for what happened at GUTS to happen at Teen Mania. Many of the staff at GUTS are friends with Teen Mania people, including the Luce’s. They’ve all swam in the same theological waters – and this has been the result.
And it is worth wondering how much this particular event was influenced by Trailer Club teachings at Teen Mania….
RA – We agree on one thing: I wouldn’t want that to happen at Teen Mania either.
It’s interesting you call “theology” what most would determine as a recreational activity or sporting event. Boxing has nothing to do with theology–I don’t think GUTS or Teen Mania would say it does. Stating that either organization demands a man must want to demonstrate physical dominance to be a Godly man is a stretch from this story.
Trailer Club doesn’t teach that at all though… I’m just confused where you’re getting this from? TC teaches about how to be a man, how to step up, how to be a husband. Yes, you have to be strong to be a man, but spiritually strong is where it counts. I don’t think I’ve EVER heard Heath or anyone in TC say otherwise…
Thoughts?
Anonymous – I would first kindly ask that you please refrain from using my real name and refer to me in the comments simply as RA. I’ve modified it in your comment above.
GUTS church is the one that is using this as a theological tool. Notice the picture of the billboard above.
As far as Teen Mania is concerned, they have LONG made the theological assumptions that your physical performance is directly related to your spiritual performance. Whether its beating your body to make it your slave or going through ESOAL – all of these “recreational activities” are rooted in theological propositions which I find to be false.
Hope that clarifies.
RA – [Sorry, I will not use your name. I didn’t know not to 🙂 ]
I see the billboard, but I’ve also looked up their sermons. It does take guts to fight for your family, and if you listen to what the pastors talk about, they are teaching how to stand up spiritually in the household. How to be a woman who can fight for her kids, how to be a husband that fights for his wife. It’s not talking about boxing–that may be an illustration used, but that’s not the main point.
I guess I don’t have a problem with your assumptions, it’s just that you can’t present them as facts… That isn’t GUTS or TM’s stance. Again, an illustration maybe–but not the meat of the message, ya know?
I am a current intern, and we just went through the PEARL. It did take physical work, yes–we ran, we rolled, we marched. And it was hard! But I finished because I pushed through my emotions. The PEARL was not so physically demanding that people couldn’t complete it, the only reason to physically ring out was because of injury really. There are those who are out of shape, and they struggled, but most finished if they were strong mentally! It was about relying on the Lord for your strength, and it was good for us.
I know you disagree–I just want to point out how I view it differently, and how much perspective factors into experience. I think I’ve read that you’ve never done ESOAL, so it’s hard to talk about such a huge event never having gone through it, ya know? It’d be like describing a roller coaster and what it feels like to free-fall, only having read about it or seen a video. It’s not truly your experience.
Anonymous Current Intern – I certainly appreciate you sharing your views so respectfully. It’s a welcome change.
One doesn’t always have to experience something in order to have an informed opinion on it. My husband has never beat me but I can say with a lot of confidence that a husband who beats his wife is abusive.
Have they unblocked my blog on campus? Or are you commenting from your phone?
RA – I see your point. Thanks for letting me share. And I am off campus right now. 🙂
Current intern, I have a young friend there with you, she wasn’t out of shape but hurt her knee and rang out on Friday. I really wanna impress upon you how your post sounds to me as a friend of hers. She is in shape she is smart and strong in so many ways. The thing is she rang out because she got hurt not from being out of shape but because the actions caused injury which makes them dangerous in some ways.
As a friend of hers I read your comments to be rather judgmental of her and others like her and I would hate for you to make a comment like that around her and for her to feel worse for being injured. Try to have a better love for those that got hurt, also realize that there are other ways of teaching teamwork that don’t cause injury. I worry about my friend I worry about all of you getting hurt. I worry about how performance even in your comment seemed to be linked with faith.
Current Intern – First of all, thanks for the polite tone. It’s a nice change from the trollish comments we sometimes get from others.
I think the best way to connect the tragedy to the doctrine is to consider what Jesus said: “By their fruits you will know them.” (Matthew 7:16-20). “Fight for your family” looks fine on paper, but if illegal boxing is what the teachers associated it with when they said “fight,” it proves they missed the point. Thus, the tragedy demonstrates that their theology is flawed.
If I was picking apart GUTS’ theology, I would point out that the Bible says not “fight” but “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.” That seems foreign to a “trailer club” mindset of macho manliness, as well. Sacrifice for her? Now that’s hard! (Anybody can beat up a guy in a bar. It takes a man real courage to be willing to go shoe shopping with his wife.)
ESOAL (nee PEARL) is another example of how false doctrine leads to injury and abuse. For several years, Dave taught interns “BAR theology,” that is, the idea that through pushing yourself physically, you’ll be able to overcome your flesh and learn to depend on God’s strength. In fact, the Bible specifically contradicts it–Colossians 2:20-23 says “severity to the body is of no value in restraining sensual indulgence.” Again, the false doctrine produced lots of abuse, hurt, and injury as the fruit.
Actually, as you’re a current intern, I’m curious to know: Does Dave still teach “BAR” theology as part of PEARL? Or does he teach the same thing under a new name? Or (allowing myself a moment of optimism) is that doctrine no longer part of the event?
RA, if you can modify our comments, as stated above.. How do i know that when i post on here that you will not modify my comments to something i didn’t say so as to make yourself look better and make me look like a dum dum?
Given the choice to delete your entire comment or change that one word, I decided to just change that one word. I can only modify your comment because you commented as anonymous. Register a blogger profile and I will no longer be able to.
That said, did I change anything else in your comment to make you look like a dum dum?
I believe the boxing at TM came from the movie Annapolis, wherein navy cadets are taught boxing so they can see how “you react when you get hit in the jaw.”
I believe teaching through physical metaphors is powerful, but when left brained people try yo used right brained consepts things get screwy. Running a race is like our spiritual lives, it is not actually our spiritual life…. the metaphor is not the thing…
Eric:
Your comment –
Dave taught interns “BAR theology,” that is, the idea that through pushing yourself physically, you’ll be able to overcome your flesh and learn to depend on God’s strength. In fact, the Bible specifically contradicts it–Colossians 2:20-23 says “severity to the body is of no value in restraining sensual indulgence.”
Perhaps its me, but if I was taught that, I wouldn’t automatically think that learning push myself physically would help with sexual sin. I’d think that it would teach me how if I set my mind to it and possibly endure some pain, I can overcome a lot more than I think. Just my 2 cents on that.
Regarding the Post:
Or they are just boxing for fun??
I don’t see how this could be seen as illegal, when you choose to do it. Its just like some kids going out and buying the exact same equipment from any sporting goods store and then hitting around on each other. Its sad for GUTS, yes, but I see zero connection here.
PS. I got second in the tourny. XD
Josh In the artical linked above it states:
“In order for an amateur boxing event to be held in the state of Oklahoma it must be sanctioned by USA Boxing, the governing body approved by the State Athletic Commission in 1999. USA Boxing is the only sanctioning body authorized to sanction amateur events in the state of Oklahoma.
Joe Miller of the Oklahoma State Athletic Commission said that after making contact with president of the Local Boxing Committee of USA Boxing Jack McCann, he was informed that the committee was unaware that the event was taking place.
“It was billed as being an amateur event. [McCann] said they had no knowledge of that event and have never had knowledge of it,” Miller said. “By virtue of that, this has been billed as an illegal event, which I’ve had to take action against by law.””
They didn’t get proper permission – therefore it’s an illegal event.
Ahh, I stand corrected for the illegal part. Don’t know what the law is in Texas for it. But I still see nothing wrong with guys just boxing it out with pads. Especially with people refing.
Josh: “I’d think that it would teach me how if I set my mind to it and possibly endure some pain, I can overcome a lot more than I think.”
Perhaps, but that also falls under what’s addressed in Colossians 2-3. The whole passage is specifically about how making a passionate effort to follow a moral standard, whether physically or spiritually, is effectively a worthless exercise. ESOAL / PEARL is just a rather more egregious failure at this than the norm.
Here’s a quote from the Phillips NT:
So if, through your faith in Christ, you are dead to the principles of this world’s life, why, as if you were still part and parcel of this world-wide system, do you take the slightest notice of these purely human prohibitions—“Don’t touch this,” “Don’t taste that” and “Don’t handle the other”? “This”, “that” and “the other” will all pass away after use! I know that these regulations look wise with their self-inspired efforts at worship, their policy of self-humbling, and their studied neglect of the body. But in actual practice they do honour, not to God, but to man’s own pride. (Colossians 2:20-23)
There’s also a HUGE difference in a couple of friends blowing off steam in the basement and organizing an event and charging tickets at the door. AND the fact the SOMEONE DIED makes it a HUGE FREAKING DEAL!!! Why anyone would promote this as a ‘church event’ is beyond me. I don’t see how this is any different from snake handling, or refusing to give your children access to medical care because ‘god heals’.
Ugh. Unbelievable. My spirit just threw up all over my spirit clothes.
How on earth can this be justified ministry? Really?
Even the video from the HA – thank God I was not in Trailer Club. I was in Brotherhood at the time – and we didn’t do anything nearly as rambunctious – but back then a lawyer was running the show for the men and I’m sure he knew what would and wouldn’t be a good idea.
Would it be unethical for the widow to have a wrongful death lawsuit? I don’t think so. I really think it should be pursued. Just because a church makes poor choices doesn’t excuse them from legal recourse – although I’m sure the “church” will say that is inappropriate. Maybe the proceeds from the fight can pay for his funeral?
Disgusting is all I gotta say.
Recovering Alumni,
Here’s the deal. I was an intern about a decade ago. I think you’ve made some very good points in your blog which I’ve been reading and following for quite a while now. However, you loose credibility when you start linking things to Teen Mania that have nothing to do with it. I’m sure that you don’t honestly believe that TM is the only place in the world that such things happen, and I’m sure that you don’t honestly blame the young man’s death on Ron Luce or David Hasz. In this blog, which is part of a conversation, it is important that you not start taking “low shots”. Otherwise, you will lose your credibility and readership.
Additionally, as a former Marine, such statements as:
“When will the church realize that being a godly man has nothing – NOTHING! – to do with beating people up or demonstrating your physical strength?”
cause an additional loss of your credibility. You begin to sound, not as a professional engaging in a conversation, but the annoying room mother who will harp on anything at all.
And by the way, the saying is true, America stands safe because violent men stand ready. Real men will fight for worthy causes and do violence if necessary. There is nothing wrong, or sinful about that, or a boxing match between opponents who agree to take part, and nothing wrong about using it as an analogy in a sermon. The death of that young man is tragic, but his death should not be manipulated and used by you to make a point that is stretches your credibility. It’s a horrible thought that you would take this families pain and twist it to your purposes.
J.
I recognize the name Chris Hart, which means he must have been around in 2002 when the feature of Standup:The Invasion was former professional wrestlers acting out a fight/get saved drama. Not causal, but definitely a link between this so-called church and TM.
J., I respect your opinion. I don’t think RA is saying that Ron Luce or Dave Hasz caused this to happen. But many people on this site have been uncomfortable with the Trailer Club boxing matches, where people HAVE been injured. Now we are presented with more proof that an amateur boxing match without the appropriate supervisions may NOT be the best idea, as it could result in something much worse than a broken nose, not to mention possibly be illegal.
For the record, I’m personally very much against this type of activity. I do not believe the Bible teaches that men should engage in physically violent activities to represent “fighting for their families.” Bringing military personnel into the conversation is ridiculous, because what someone does as a profession is completely different than something a person is engaging in for some kind of quasi-spiritual symbolism. Soldiers are LITERALLY fighting for our country; these boxers are punching other brothers in Christ in the head to symbolize spiritual warfare (which really doesn’t even make sense as symbolize because your brother isn’t your enemy). How about a church where men REALLY DO spiritual warfare for their families? How about organizing men to come together for times of intercession for their wives and children? I think that would be a lot more beneficial than justifying a boxing match with some spiritual mumbo jumbo. If you want to make the argument that men enjoy engaging in violent physical activities, then fine, but let’s quit overspiritualizing it.
julie: “these boxers are punching other brothers in Christ in the head to symbolize spiritual warfare”
where on earth did you get this? We didn’t do Boxing matches to try and simulate spiritual warfare. We boxed because it was fun. Its a challenge.
Josh: if you look at the guts billboard it says “it takes guts to fight for your family” surrounded by boxing gloves. Given that its a church sponsored event, Julie’s comment isn’t a big leap from the marketing message they’re sending.
If you want to box for fun – that’s what gym’s are for. Safety measures included.
So boxing is fun so its allowed in a church environment sanctioned by church officials?
Well shit – sex is fun too – so can we do that in church too? Cause Lord sign me up for that church.
Somehow in the recesses of my brainwashed memory I can still hear Hasz yelling something about avoiding the appearance of evil – and damn I’d say GUTS has missed that mark and if Trailer Club kids are still bashing each other around in the name of Jesus then it would be safe to say that TMM doesn’t like to heed its own advice.
“Well shit – sex is fun too – so can we do that in church too? Cause Lord sign me up for that church.”
omg Umbrellas you are my favorite
“Well shit – sex is fun too – so can we do that in church too? Cause Lord sign me up for that church.”
I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t want any refs for that particular activity!
Umbrellas – I like how you think!
GUTS & TMM have a lot of similarities – when TMM was located in Tulsa, many interns attended GUTS. I think I even went to GUTS once when I was visiting TMM friends in Tulsa …
I don’t think it’s a huge leap to connect the two. I can see how, if you are new to the Honor Academy, you can’t see the connection, but for those of us who have been involved with TMM for 20+ years, there is definitely a historical connection.
I also think this is a perfect example of theological “illustrations” taken to the extreme (which almost all of HA’s LTE’s are) … literally “fighting” for your family … when the church engages in this kind of literal activity, it lends more credibility to those who want to say that events like Battlecry / ESOAL, etc., may progress to a literal military revolution.
J., I think the argument is much simpler:
1. HA does this.
2. Guts did this, and somebody died.
3. Therefore, HA should consider that it isn’t a good idea to do this.
3a. And if they don’t reconsider, we have to wonder why not.
As for the rest. What if I’m a Christian– an Anabaptist, let’s say– who’s firmly convinced that following Christ’s teaching in the sermon on the mount means that I have to be a pacifist? Does that mean I’m not a “godly man” (even though I base my beliefs on Jesus’ teachings)? Or does it mean I’m not a “real man” (even though it takes immense courage to stand up for those principles)? You see the problem with this kind of labeling. It just doesn’t work.
lol I was at that boxing event you have in the video. Its not meant to be a spiritual thing. Its to bring the guys together and have some fun. Most guys like UFC and it was pretty fun to box during that event. No one got hurt, you can actually see me in that video haha. Those were some great times.
@Anon,
The thing with GUTS had a definite spiritual connotation. As for the Trailer Club version, it was very dangerous and was meant to send a message about “how to be a man” in a Christian culture. It’s unsafe (those chairs alone are HIGHLY dangerous…what if someone fell into one? lose an eye?)and not at ALL about God’s love or brotherhood or even fun. It’s violence, and feeds violent appetites.
A lot of details are still coming out about the boxing match at Guts. For instance, they had 3 one minute matches with 16 oz padded gloves and padded helmets. The guy that died was a football player that had sickle cell anemia. He did not reveal that on medical releases. The medical report has not been released yet, but it is widely believed his death was related to SSA rather than trauma caused by the boxing match. Commissioner Joe Miller has changed his story recently and now says an event like the one held at Guts did not fall under his sanctioning rules. While I have to admit that I am not a fan of boxing myself, men have been duking it out since the beginning of time & many of those men are christians. In fact, Sunday football is probably a more brutal sport than 180 seconds of boxing with 3 breaks in between, that a lot of peole on here are condemning:)) Just a thought….