Is Teen Mania a Cult? Conclusion

Hey is your name Kevin?

My sister is at “HA” and is having a horrible time she was on fire or the Lord and now is fed up with that place would you be able to give me some more insight on your experience?

Hey Ashley i’m at the HA now what is your sisters name? I don’t want anybody to be having a hard time here so i’d love encourage and be there for her.

I graduated from the HA in 2007. I disagreed with a lot of the HA, and I hated being there. With that said, I’m very grateful for my year at the HA, and I wouldn’t take the year back.

ok so i am a current intern at the HA.. My name is martin and i am not ashamed or sorry for anything i am about to say. First off can you say pride? throwing out your resume in attempt give some assurance to people who are ignorant to what the HA is all about. Secondly, no one forced you to be here, there are no walls around campus holding anyone in. There is a lot of controversy surrounding what goes on at Teen Mania, but there was plenty of the same ill feelings about the ministry of Christ himself. We aren’t here to make anyone feel good, I didn’t come to the HA to be like every other weak hearted believer of this generation. The opposite of courage in today’s society is not cowardice, in conformity. And that is exactly what the HA isn’t, normal. God has called us to be a peculiar people. The only thing that is going to change the world is something different, because what we’ve been doing for so long isn’t working. I think you need to re-evaluate your faith, from all that i have read, you are weak. God bless

Whoah. Ouch. Be careful Martin. That sounded quite judgmental and prideful (which, I’m sure, is not how you meant to come across).

Who are you to declare that RA is weak? And to imply that s/he may not have true faith (by your statement that s/he ought to re-evaluate his/her faith)?

As RA has stated many times on this blog, it is for people who have been hurt by TM – not necessarily current interns. Sometimes it takes many years and a lot of time with God before you even realize you were hurt.

I myself was someone who fully supported TM, hated leaving campus after I graduated, and quoted everything they said for TEN YEARS before I realized the damage they’d done. Even though my dearest friends had been severely damaged by TM. I just couldn’t see it.

I’m just saying you should be careful; there might be things you’re not seeing now that you will realize a decade later – and then you might wish you could eat your words.

your right, not my attempt to be judgmental. i think if you absorb every little thing at teen mania, and live solely on the teachings instilled here, then yeah you might end up all jacked up. thats why theres a bible, you should be able to discern the things that may be detrimental to your walk with God, and cast those things aside. lean on the truth of God, not the HA.. i think thats where people get it twisted. Dave Hasz is a wise man of God, but that doesn’t mean i believe everything he says. like i said, i’m not sorry for sounding like a jerk. God has called me to be bold and stand for the things he has shown me. and that is the fact that some of you that spend time making blogs simply to point out all the bad things about a great thing, need to wake up.. some of you are more worried about what the next post will say than the desperate needs of our generation. WAKE UP, get off the computer and go read your bible.

Oh, Martin… believe me, there is a fine line between being BOLD and being a PHARISEE.

Again, this is for those of us who realize how our spirituality got out-of-whack. That’s not to say that we’re projecting all the blame onto TM, but to acknowledge that not everything they say is absolute truth, and even that some of the things they teach are false (and to share the process of recovery TOGETHER). We’re not “evening out” or “getting back into the world”; we’re doing exactly what you said… going back to The Word and rebuilding our faith.

Nobody is forced to stay at the HA, but at the same time, there is a great shame and stigma on people who end up leaving. They just “don’t have enough faith” or they’re “totally backslidden heathens”.

Martin, I used to be JUST LIKE YOU. I was “bold”, as you say. I’m still not afraid of confronting sin and being told when I’m out of place. But then I learned that there is a way to state the Truth and not be prideful.

Jesus awards those who are bold, and I know you are avidly seeking Him, but know that He doesn’t reward arrogance.

once again.. not my goal to sound arrogant, and if you knew my heart you would know i’m not being prideful. i’m out to change the world, that’s my calling. and those things won’t be accomplished if i sit around and discuss the things that have hurt me in the past. we have freedom in the spirit from the things that we can’t overcome as flesh. i’ve been through junk that was way worse than anything the HA can put in my head. i lived a life literally FOR Satan, i did his work on a daily basis. if that is not spiritually abusing now that i know the truth, i dont know what is. i come off arrogant but it is because i am passionate about what i believe. we all have our different convictions, and i’m sorry that you were hurt. but talking about your pain isn’t preparing the house for Christ when he comes back for his bride.

of course you can’t forget about them.. but that would be the logical thing right. i say embrace them, understand fully that they part of your past, but to embrace them as an experience. Learn from pain, but move on to learning new things. don’t dwell on the negative.

you forgot the move on part.. that was pretty much the main point i was trying to make.

can anyone explain the “tuition” costs to me before i send my son to HA?

the gist of TM is that it is SUPPOSED to be self-supporting…that is, everything pays for itself somehow. at least that was the explanation for why everything cost as much as it did–GE trips paid for the obvious logistics, but percentages went to paying for the advertising and marketing of next year’s trips, too. the same goes for the HA–the “tuition” is mostly operating cost, like at any school–food, a bed, campus maintenance, etc. but i’m sure that a portion of that also goes to the HA in general.

what is there to recover from? i am so confused by this… is the HA just deception? ive been wanting to go to HA for a while and see it as a stepping stone in my walk with the Lord. where does all the hurt come from? i have friends coming back beautifully healed and seem ready to take on their lifes. has the HA helped you at all? i may be very uneducated about the topic at hand, but i do see the outlining factor. whats the truth about the academy? what does it all stand for, only in your opinion?

Hello,
I am someone who really had an amazing year at Teen Mania and am starting to type up my notes so that I can refresh my memory and have access to them again. I value my time there and keep in contact with friends from my core. I was there Aug. 02-03 and made more then a passing acquaintance with dish duty while there. (I earned it.) I can see how it is possible to develop a performance based approach to faith and serving God, particularly at the HA. I would say that it is one of the easiest things to do no matter what the background (Ha or no), and that it takes God at work to show us the meaning and reality of his grace. From what I have seen, most of those who go through the internship find that it is a maturing and growing experience. However, I know that in this world nothing is perfect and that there are people who have not had good experiences. (Yes, I know this is a big understatement for some of you.) Anyhow, I just wanted to throw in my two cents worth and to mention a couple of books that I have come across since the internship that may be encouraging and/or bring some healing. One being “Grace Awakening” By Charles Swindoll This is a beautiful book taking an in depth look at what it means to be saved by grace. Swindoll is rock solid biblically and the book is a joy to read. (The blurb on the back does not do it justice at all.) The second is “how people change” by Lane and Tripp. It talks about how we grow as Christians and gives hope for continued change and maturing. The thing about both of these books is that they are totally God focused and reliant, pointing us to Him. I hope that these encourage you and help you to live joyfully.

Sorry, it is hard to speak less then glowingly about what has been such a good experience for me, but I do have to rephrase one of my sentences. I said, “I can see how it is possible to develop a performance based approach to faith…” I should have put “how easy it is”.

Thanks to all who are here for the heartfelt dialogue. Thanks you also for the time you spent at TM and your passion for Christ. While some of the comments here are overstated and lack context, the general points are important issues, not just for HA, but for the Body of Christ as a whole.

There is tension in Truth. We often are forced to believe two things at once (for instance: Grace vs. Works or Election vs. Free-Will). To the underdeveloped leader, this produces conflict. Over time, with study, practice and the instruction of the Holy Spirit, one can find a place of peace. Not a place that is in the middle, but one of embracing spiritual truths that seem to be opposite, but in fact, are necessarily different.

Anyway, thanks for the lively dialogue and this site offers a chance for all to learn and grow, while practicing speaking the truth in love. A constant review and practice of 1 Corinthians 13 will keep each contributor properly aligned for this type of “reasoning together.”

I am the chairman of the board of TM (since 1996).

Mr. Williams, I don’t quite understand what you’re saying. Are you saying that once we all get to be better leaders, we’ll learn to ignore the fact that TM is spiritually abusive?

I think I speak for everyone, though, when I say that your diplomacy is much appreciated. I just honestly don’t understand your point.

Actually, Nunquam (may I use your first name?:)) ignoring facts is not what I was talking about at all. Just alluding to the point that while there is no conflict in truth, there are conflicts in understanding truth. All “facts” need to be tested. Calling actions into question is healthy and needed for progress. Judging motives and intent is more complicated. An African proverb states: “He that runs alone thinks he runs fastest.” Comparing our “facts” with others is vital for understanding and wisdom, it is, however, to do so in an environment where different viewpoints are welcomed and encouraged without jumping to judgment of motives. That’s all. Anyway, I appreciate this dialogue and I am here to learn. I have spent many years in prayer and service to TM and to each of you. I pray for and am deeply thankful for you. +daniel

Mr. Williams – I’m sorry, but I’m with Nunquam and I don’t understand what you’re saying either?

I myself, during my intern year, brought my concerns to staff members and graduate interns and was constantly rebuked for questioning the teaching and was told time and time again that “taking scripture out of context isn’t a compromising issue”. I constantly pray for Teen Mania that God would break through on campus and that there would be repentance and change from the leadership. If teaching and other things at Teen Mania don’t change then it needs to be shut down because they are heaping judgement upon themselves. Dave Hasz himself quotes, “Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.” James 3:1

My response would be that of Jesus in Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

“While lip service is paid to grace and mercy – it is decidedly absent in the culture and teachings there.”

R.A. thank you for this comment. i completely agree with this statement. during my 9 months down there i was taught about grace and mercy and how every leader is to display these qualities to everyone without regard or discrimination. but when it comes down to it the leaders at TM don’t teach what they preach. i was put on the other side of the equation because i broke a rule and was eventually dismissed. Throughout

To continue
Throughout my time in leeway not knowing if I was going to be dismissed or not and while waiting over a month for my actual trial as I would put it. I was finally called to a leader’s office to find out my judgment. When I found out there was a lack of grace from leadership as I was told and then after as I remained on campus till I was going home. So many things were taken out of context, the vocabulary they used when explaining why I got dismissed was very off. Again things taken out of context.
R.A. thank you for the blog as it has helped me with healing after my dismissal. Also that it isn’t just me who noticed these things that are wrong or misguided with leadership at TM and with the organization.

The HA is an intresting experience. Im a current intern and i dont agree with alot of things but thats life and i made a commitment so im sticking with it. The HA pushes you beyond compare and i dont agree with some of the radical mindset but what can you do. Once you give them your money you cant get it back. Also they push you to be here and not leave so its hard. The HA is an intresting experience and isnt for everyone.

Anonymous-

You will be paying alot more for counseling when you get out. It is ALOT more than money that you are losing.

Don’t feel, Anonymous, you have to stick with a commitment if it isn’t in your best interest. There is no shame is quiting something that isn’t working out for you. Learning when it’s time to quit is an important life lesson. People grow and change. Sometimes something that we once enjoyed or that was benificial at one time seizes to be in our best interest. An entreprenuer needs to know when to quit a business that is failing. An employee needs to know when to quit a job that is burning him out. A church volunteer needs to know when to quit a volunteer project that is cutting into from family time. A student needs to know when to change majors if his aspirations change.

It’s ok to break a commitment sometimes — it can even be good! Talk it over with God. Really, He will understand. Quiting the HA wouldn’t mean ending your relationship with God.

The commitment you made to the HA is as trivial as promising a spouse to take out the garbage everyday. Maybe you take out the garbage every day very faithfully for a while, then your circumstances change. You talk it over with your spouse and together come to another arrangement. By breaking such a commitment, you haven’t broken your marriage or even compromised it. In fact, the second arrangement may work out better for everyone.

It’s ok for commitments to change.

Hey so what would you have to say about the people who come out of the Honor Academy and love it. I know and have talked with some people who absolutely loved the Honor Academy. People who have been out for about 15 years.

To Anon who posted this:

“The commitment you made to the HA is as trivial as promising a spouse to take out the garbage everyday…”

While I am not a particular fan of HA, committing to it is certainly NOT trivial–nor is breaking your commitment…it is a difficult process that requires much prayer, healing and seeking the Lord.

Last “a different anon” – i agree with you. absolutely. but anyone who has been in the HA and has left, or is still there but has woken up to what is going on will realise that there is no commitment. well there is, but what i mean is the from the time of the commitment banquet (which makes you feel so pressured to commit to them), throughout the rest of the HA you can see that the HA breaks that commitment themselves. Look at everything that both parties are “committing” to and you will see that Teen Mania NEVER keeps their end of the commitment, but tries to bully and guilt trip you into keeping your end. If they have broken the commitment, then the commitment becomes invalid.
Teen Mania often uses Joshua 9 (The Gibeonite story) to preach on commitment. But read the scripture again and you will see that Teen Mania is clearly in the position of the deceptors.

OK, here it my deal with this. I am a current GI at the HA. I have had every reason to become angry and bitter at the Honor Academy and the leadership here. While I do not agree with some of what they believe as a whole I am fully behind what they do. I does not matter how the “blog” is put out. Everyone here is just looking for sympathy. When in fact you have no idea on what this does to people who are struggling here. What if a current intern was having a hard time in there life, completely unrelated to the HA, and the read this and saw a wat out. Your “pain” or whatever is now a direct influence into there life. I have done so much while here, I am at times still wonder why I am still here. They have helped me grow. I am not saying you cannot find growth out of the HA. But i sounds like you banked so much in the HA experience, that you did not develop you own philosophy. That when you left you feel apart, become depressed. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Test everything. Hold on to the good” am I judging yes. Not because I want to bash you or other people that feel this way. But blaming something you voluntarily committed is a little immature. Just saying…

Stephen- hmm, I recognize your name! Perhaps I was a GI when you were an intern?

Let me say that I felt exactly the same way you did. The “no-ministry-is-perfect”, “you-need-to-discern-for-yourself”, and “everything-is-my-fault” cards were constant in my… hand? I suppose. Metaphors can only be taken so far.

Regardless, I’m sure you get what I’m saying.

The point: there is not much room to “make your own philosophy” at the internship, unfortunately. Everything Mr. Hasz says is law (implied or otherwise), and to believe anything apart from that is unspeakable.

(ie: interns who believe that socially drinking after the age of 21 is acceptable for Believers, etc… but I digress…)

Yes, we should absolutely discern for ourselves. DEFINITELY. However, those who have done so, and spoken with leadership about it, have been shut down, ignored, or even laughed at by Dave Hasz himself!

This is why this blog exists. People are faulted. I’m faulted, you’re faulted, RA is fauled.

Teen Mania leadership is faulted.

The only thing that marks their actions as offensive and a stumbling block, is that they’re teaching principles that do not line up (or sometimes, even, go completely against the nature of Jesus) and have not repented for it.

That is the problem, and it causes great damage to a bunch of kids (I do include myself in that term) who choose not to think for themselves and just want to “be used by God”.

Wow…I’ll say that the HA did look very “appetizing” when I heard about it and looking at the website…but find this blogged as deterred me from that desire…Which I am grateful for. Honestly it doesn’t sound like something I want to be a part of because to me it sounds like there’s slim to none holy spirit leading and all man leading.

Let me restate my second sentence (as I am pretty tired right now lol) But finding this blog has deterred me from that desire…

I was an August Intern 02-03, and I did not find it difficult to stand up for what I believed at any moment while I was there. I was not rebuked for speaking my mind (I was however challenged but you will encounter that in all walks of life so for me it was beneficial,) I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to do. I walked away from that year with a stronger Faith because I was challenged to figure out what it was that I believed and stand up for it even when it wasn’t the norm. I understand that my experience, was my experience but I think it is important to recognize that we determine our experiences. When I went to the HA I knew what I was signing up for, I knew that there were going to be things that didn’t sit right with my Spirit and I knew how I was going to handle that. I went in to the experience prepared, which is probably why I walked away with no hurt or pain. I have a hard time speaking ill of my time there, because for me it was nothing but challenging. Which is what I was looking for.

Honestly, I find it interesting that so many people are saying that it was years and years after the experience that they realized the healing they needed from it. I really don’t know how to take that kind of statement. I don’t want to come off wrong, but for me when you are growing in your relationship with the Lord, when you know who He is and His promises, His grace, His truth, His love…what kind of healing does man have to offer compared to that intimacy with the Lord? I do hope those of you that were hurt by the experience find the healing your are looking for but I also want to encourage you that healing doesn’t come from man, sympathy comes from man…healing comes from getting in the Word, putting it into action, believing that it is true and relying on the Lord.

Its funny you are hesitant to say something bad about a function you benefited from (ATF) but will tear an organization to pieces because you personally had a bad experience.
Proverbs 15:15 “All the days of the afflicted are bad, But a cheerful heart has a continual feast.”
You my friend are “afflicted”. I’m not trying to be condemning. Just thought maybe you should think about the fact that maybe, just maybe you are the one chiefly responsible for being so “wounded”. Is there any way you could receive responsibility for all this “recovering” you need? Do you ever wonder why so many people have a great experience and walk away with positive life changes from the Honor Academy and all you have is bitterness and affliction. Now all your days are “bad” because you are so “afflicted”. Is it strange how the “cheerful heart” (that’s something that comes from within ((personal responsibility and reliance on Holy Spirit))) have a continual feast. Everyday is better since I learned and experienced what I did.

Anon, you’re presh, really. Read: NOT AT ALL.

I’d like to know where all these ‘uber Christians’ are hiding that come out of HA. Really. Tell me. Show me. They don’t EXSIST because THEY’RE A FAIRY TALE. Clearly there are many people that need healing from the spiritually abusive enviornment HA and TM exude, so SHAME ON YOU for ripping apart someone who’s provided a safe place to come for spiritual healing.

stfu and go read the Bible or something. Because I think you’ll learn a lot by actually cracking it open.

Cesna, what a ridiculous claim. Jesus tore people apart and blamed them for their own problems, too.

I like how “all” RA has is bitterness apparently. Once again, here’s the basic breakdown of how alumni perceive anybody who disagrees with TM.

I’m not sure if it’s sad or funny at this point.

Most recent Anon –

I’ve been around TM for a very long time, and I think something key to recognize here is that RA isn’t claiming that every single person who has ever been involved with the HA or with TM had a bad experience or was wounded in any way. What (s)he is claiming is that far too many people have had bad experiences and/or have been hurt. In my opinion, even one would be too much to ignore.

Of course this is completely anecdotal, but in my “long time” of being around TM (more than 20 years of history, BTW), I can vouch that the stories you read here aren’t unusual. I won’t venture a guess at a percentage or ratio, as that wouldn’t be fair. But it’s enough to raise serious concern in even the biggest Teen Mania fan. This is coming from someone who actually did have very positive experiences with TM. I had some negative ones too, but overall, I generally speak very positively about Teen Mania and my internship experience.

Everyone here has a right to draw attention to these issues that need to be addressed. They deserve to not be ignored or marginalized or judged. And in every other forum available to them, they either have been, or have dealt with legitimate suspicion that they would be. This is a place where people can safely and finally be honest about their experiences with Teen Mania and the HA without fear of being ignored, marginalized, or judged. I believe the appropriate response from Teen Mania and any who claim to support the organization to be ownership of responsibility, sincere apology, and open dialogue. Then, change.

I’ve yet to see that from TM directly, though I have seen some from former staff. Perhaps rather than judge RA for this, you should read through these many testimonials and consider that maybe, just maybe, something’s broken with TM and the HA.

What’s wrong Cesna? Do you only want to hear the advice that fits what you want to hear? I was asking questions and you go and make general rationalizations about anyone who graduated the internship and liked it (there are no “uber Christians, they all precieve everyone who disagrees with TM the same way). After all, isn’t that one of the main complaints about the Honor Academy, you’re not entitled to ask the tough questions? Are you here for healing or are you hear to bash people with a differing view?
I do want to appologize for how harsh my comment came off. I know that this comment does not cover everyone who comes to this site, but if it covers one, it helps.

Teen Mania is not a cult – they are a business.

That over-spiritualize the smallest matters.

That’s where the damage comes from, friend.

Nunquam, you’re getting a little nit-picky and coming off “bashing” and “bitter”.

If I’m coming off that way, I apologize. It’s just… I don’t know if I’m amused or confused at the claim that “Teen Mania is not a cult – they are a business”.

Because interns will come to TM’s defense and say “hey guys it’s a business, that’s how businesses work”, which is FINE. If TM were just a business in and of itself, we wouldn’t have this problem.

Real Life:
When people are struggling with their personal life, it’s kept out of the work place.
When people have a hard time enjoying their job, they’re given a little pep-talk, encouraged to move past it, and get on with it (or quit).
When two people have differing views of the same college/work place/otherwise communal area, they’re normally able to “agree to disagree” without a big shock.

Which are all FINE.

But when I say “over-spiritualize”, they take these same issues and make them directly relate to one’s personal walk with the Lord.

You’re having a rough day? Don’t dwell on your emotions; just put on a smile and say “but the Lord is good”, and then it’s fine and you shouldn’t bring it up again (personal experience). Definitely don’t want to infect others with a negative spirit (salvation was commonly questioned).

You’re having a hard time in your ministry placement? God put you there, don’t complain.

When two people differ on their opinions on Teen Mania, there is a large division that shouldn’t be there. They become a bad influence, and you have to “guard yourself” whenever you talk to them, because they might get their heathen cooties on you 😉

So no, I’m not bitter, I just tend to use humor/sarcasm in my posts (it’s a rhetorical device, meant to make one’s point clearer!). Text often lacks proper context; if you were with me in person, I’d say the exact same thing, but with a lot more giggles and bubbly animation (seriously; those who know me personally on here can vouch for that).

I tend to be very tongue-in-cheek, and if that comes off as bitterness, then again I apologize.

Man alive, lookit that comment. Apologies and admiration to anybody who actually reads that whole thing!

NH, mostly- I think it’s safe to say that most of us have had experienced the phenomenon of misunderstandings on the internet- it’s not hard to confuse someone with what you say when you say it as a joke and they perceive it as truth. Like sarcasm, it’s hard to convey in the written form. Tone and inflection don’t translate well.

As for TM being a business and not a cult… well, I do love TM, and don’t believe they’re a cult, but I think you’ve missed a few things if you think they’re a business. They’re a ministry. Yes, it’s structured quite a bit like a business, but that’s about the most of it. Businesses aren’t non-profit 501(c3) (I think that’s right). They have employees, not interns. They also usually don’t house their workers, feed ’em, or make them go through ESOAL. That last one is probably for the better. It runs a bit like a business, but don’t get them confused for one.

What makes you think the comment “They’re not a cult, they’re a business” is to aid TM? It sounds more like a slam to me. They’re saying its about spirituality, its about business, so they couldn’t be a cult.

Anon, I’m not sure to whom that comment is directed, but I’ll take a whack at it 😉

I’ve spoken with people who have defended Teen Mania by saying that it is a business, and therefore that’s just how businesses work.

The only time I’ve seen that rhetoric used was in defense of the ministry. If it wasn’t supposed to be taken that way, then my bad.

“I don’t want to come off wrong, but for me when you are growing in your relationship with the Lord, when you know who He is and His promises, His grace, His truth, His love…what kind of healing does man have to offer compared to that intimacy with the Lord?”

This is a comment from Anon a while back.

So, if I am to understand you correctly, growing in the Lord and intimacy with the Lord should solve my psychological and spiritual sufferings?

This type of thinking is akin to saying “If you have enough faith in God, he will heal you of XXX” True enough, God may heal you, if you are a believer in healing. But, would you forgo going to a doctor if you have cancer because “God will heal you”? Would you forgo going to a counselor/psychiatrist if you have a major mental illness such as schizophrenia because “God will heal you?”

You guys are funny. I said it’s a business because money is the bottom-line.

Think about it – Jesus said you can only serve one master – God, or money. He didn’t say, God, or Fame … God, or your lustful desires … He said God and money.

I think it’s more than ironic that RA is bringing light to issues that have been at Teen Mania for over 20 years and this one nameless, faceless intern can get Daniel William’s to respond to her blog.

I was very close with Dave and Ron through my years at Teen Mania and I care deeply for them. I just think that they have become “Consumed by the Call” and not Consumed by the Caller. I don’t think they can imagine their lives apart from Teen Mania.

Martin, I hope you continue to be brainwashed. You’ve signed a contract for a year and your time will be extremely difficult if you realize the truth before then.

I am a Mother of a intern that is currently attending the HA. I am both concerned and frustrated by the comments I just read.
I know that when my child came home for Christmas break he/she was very upset when he/she sibling was listening to secular music. I was concerned because it was almost like he/she was having a breakdown and that he/she would be punished for being in the same room with secular music being played. I continued to remind my child that we are to love people for where they are and we are to walk beside them in love and not in judgment. I pray that God will continue to remind my child this throughout his/her stay at HA.

I must mention that we have seen a huge growth in my child over the past few months and I know that this year has been a year of struggles,commitments and trails,life long lessons learned and will only help HA interns and not harm them.

Anonymous Mother –

I was at TM for 4 years. I come from a very healthy, wonderful family, but if you talk to my mother she will tell you that she “lost” her daughter to TM for 4 years and once I left TM, she got me back.

I am sure that your child is growing spiritually and learning a lot, but if your child is seeking God that’s going to happen regardless of whether, or not he/she is at HA. 🙂

If I were you, I would have some pretty honest conversations with your child and ask for details about what is happening in their internship (what leadership is teaching, what kind of evaluations are being done on them, what they are being confronted about). It will give you more insight to the “entire” experience.

RA – I wish your site was around when I was an intern. It would have decreased the amount of pain by MONTHS had it been available at the time.

It’s been over 9 years since I first signed up to attend the HA. I haven’t regularly attended church since I graduated. I don’t trust organized religion – at all. I’m lucky that I did not become atheist or agnostic after leaving like I know several of my friends did.

True, there are good things that can (and did) come out of my experience at the HA; namely my close relationship with the Lord at the time. However, I’m convinced that there are other ways people can reach new levels in their walks without being involved in TMM.

I would honestly not encourage anyone to go there. I wish my parents would have listened more when I called home several times bawling. Although, I’m not blaming them. They were very supportive of my faith. They also didn’t understand what was going on there and I was too conflicted by my pact to “not speak ill” of anything TMM related.

But for the parents who currently have children in attendance – PLEASE hear your children out. If they are speaking with candor about what it going on, that in itself, is a huge step. PLEASE listen to them and support them in making the best decision for their lives.

This was posted by an anonymous commenter. I just think it needs to be reiterated:

“I was very close with Dave and Ron through my years at Teen Mania and I care deeply for them. I just think that they have become “Consumed by the Call” and not Consumed by the Caller. I don’t think they can imagine their lives apart from Teen Mania.”

To all you people who have these hurts from teen mania, i have a question, have you not first gone to the source? For example, if Dave Hasz has offended you or hurt you, have you gone to him and told him? “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.” Matthew 5:23-25 It is understandable to be upset, please pray to God, forgive, a friend once told me that for some people the HA is a great thing, for others it is not. let us not cling to things of the past, God once showed me a truth that i have never forgot and that is this, in the story of your life God should be the beginning, middle, and end of everything you think, say and do. Is this, what your are doing, saying, glorifying God?

CULT- 1-a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. 2- as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3-the object of such devotion.
4- a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

Religion:1- a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2-a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3-the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

So… though the wording is different, is there really much of a difference between the two? so then whats your point, its a cult, its a religion, essentially a religion is a cult so whats your point?

“Anon at 4:39 – Ironically, the verse you quoted actually means Dave Hasz should come to US before trying to give his worship to God.” perhaps, save this, how could he come to you when he has no idea that he has offended you? you sit there and talk about how terrible it was, they hurt you, well talk it out, go to the people who have hurt you, tell them how you feel, yes the scripture says if you know that a brother has a quarrel with you go to him, well i would venture to guess Dave doesn’t have one with you guys, how can it be his responsibility to come to you and resolve the issue if he doesnt even know about it? regardless, are we not called to walk in love and forgiveness? Jesus says to forgive 77×7 times a day, not completely accurate on that number but you get my point, it is up to us to forgive or not, but seriously lets focus on God, not man, he is what matters not us, lets not lash at each other and attack each other, rather love each other and work at unity.

“Anon at 4:46pm – There is great difference between cults and religions. You need to read more of these posts before you make illogical conclusions about what I’ve said.”

I am not making any conclusions about what you said in general i am merely saying isn’t it pretty much the same? the definitions are not much different, but two things, explain how this statement i made is illogical, please id like to know, and two in your opinion show the difference between cult and religion, all i am saying is it seems there is no real fine line between the two beyond opinion.

Anonymous, I definitely understand your confusion at the purposes and intents of this blog. It really comes down to this:

SPEAKING OUT is not equivalent to UNFORGIVENESS.

People say “just forgive and move on”, which RA has. The only reason he’s saying anything is because these ABUSIVE practices are STILL being held there.

Also, as a side note: Christianity’s not a religion. Just thought I’d throw that out there and see where it leads…

RA – On a positive Dave note, he doesn’t always blow people off when they come to him with a grievance, thankfully. I emailed him a couple of years ago telling him how one particular action my intern year hurt me and my whole group of friends to the core. He was incredibly apologetic and kind and stated that it was never his intention to hurt us at all. He even explained some of his reasoning behind the decision. I still don’t agree with the decision that was made, but he gave me the chance to see it from his point of view. I was very surprised, because I totally expected not to get a response at all.

Thanks for this site, btw, I’m really enjoying it.

I would classify as a Cult. They meet the four criteria for being one (according to Kanter). The first criteria is geographical separation, where the group isolates themselves from mainstream society (check!). The second is invasion of privacy, where the leaders of the group are involved in every aspect of the member’s personal lives and relationships (check!). The third criteria is rituals, which are things that all the group members do everyday together (check!). The final criteria is transfer of assets, where the individual gives the cult everything they have -such as land, money, their services, and labor all for free (check!).

@Anon Girl: A cult expert I once discussed HA with (I’m not sure he’d want to go on record with this so I won’t give his name) described it as “a high-control group with definite cult characteristics.” In other words, it’s not totally a cult, but it wouldn’t take many changes to make it a full-blown one. Either way, it’s unquestionably Spiritual Abuse–possibly the most concrete instance of it that I’ve ever seen.

One thing to keep in mind when using the word “cult” – and the lists of criteria out there – is that a lot of those lists, and the popular idea of what a “cult” is, came out of the 60’s and 70’s when hundreds if not thousands of such groups were out there, disrupting thousands of people’s (and their parents’) lives and being written about in the press. Much has evolved and changed since then; you now have a sort of hybrid that clearly incorporates aspects of those “cults” while doing things that defy the term, such as recruiting thousands of churches across the country to assist in gathering young people to attend their events and programs.

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the similarity between the “Acquire the Fire” events and what were called “large group awareness trainings” or LGATs. Bad food, sleep deprivation, and emotionally grueling trainings away from home that lasted for many hours over a weekend or more were part of LGATs, most notoriously Werner Erhard’s “est.” (article: http://goo.gl/5rsx)

Some LGATs are similar to the personal development/motivational scene, which shares at least one board member with Teen Mania. Interesting, isn’t it?

I was reading over responses, and i find it hard when actually looking up the definitions of cult and religion, “the actual definitions” and find it difficult to really point much difference between the two?

“Anon at 5:58pm – Dave has known for months about this blog and knows how to contact me. I would also venture to say that he is WELL AWARE of the pain he has caused others. I know this b/c when people confront him about it, he routinely blows them off.” Ok duly noted RA when i have time i will look more into what you said is listed, but i must point out to things, first if you are not bitter etc.. why do you have such an attitude of anger? towards even me? two, how do you know Dave knows, and have you yourself gone to him? sure maybe he knows about the sight, does that mean he knows he is directly the cause, i dont know only he does, also he is a very busy man he cant always set aside that time, he has said that he submitted a facebook message asking any of those who he hurt to come to him with the problems so he can work them out, anyways, i will pray for you, also anything you would specifically like me to pray for you about? and hey what could it hurt to confront him again, if he did blow you off, confront again, and another thing a post on this very blog even says he doesnt blow everyone off. well toodles, God bless.

“I would classify as a Cult. They meet the four criteria for being one (according to Kanter). The first criteria is geographical separation, where the group isolates themselves from mainstream society (check!). The second is invasion of privacy, where the leaders of the group are involved in every aspect of the member’s personal lives and relationships (check!). The third criteria is rituals, which are things that all the group members do everyday together (check!). The final criteria is transfer of assets, where the individual gives the cult everything they have -such as land, money, their services, and labor all for free (check!).” So i was going to go into an elaborate description about how this could be applied very easily to religion but ill just say this, in reality these four checks, you can apply to nearly anything.

Man, i wish we could all stop arguing, i wish we as human beings, in every area of life could learn to better treat each other, we all hurt each other, i have noticed so much though, that rather than solve the problem right away we let it fester and burn and hate each other and become bitter, i myself am just as guilty of this, RA, If anything i said earlier offended you i sincerely am sorry, in all honesty i know that teen mania has hurt people, its hurt me too, but it has also changed my life and grown me, before i came here my faith was Luke warm, i hated people, i was selfish, perverted, this place helped me break free of that and truly get to know God on such a better level, we as inherently flawed and imperfect beings will always produce inherently flawed and imperfect creations and establishments etc.. so to expect that you wont be offended or hurt or that it will be perfect in everything it does is a flawed expectation in itself, my point in saying this is especially in a big organization it should be expected there will be people hurt, its that how its dealt with that matters, truly RA and all you others i am sorry you have been hurt, i hope you all get a chance to work the issues out and have peace, please if there is any bitter please try not to let it fester i personally know the damage it causes. also to bring this to light, i dont know if this is your intention RA, but when you call TM a cult and say its a terrible place etc… it to interns feels like a direct insult to them thus they respond, i hope you can forgive TM for whatever wrongdoings, i must say this and this is also from personal experience but a coined phrase i have heard often, there is no such thing as a one sided coin, in meaning that there is never just one right side and one wrong side, in life its usually you are right and wrong and they are right and wrong as well, anyways you will be in my prayers, forgive, forget, have peace, be filled with the love of God and be renewed! God bless.

Man, i wish we could all stop arguing, i wish we as human beings, in every area of life could learn to better treat each other, we all hurt each other, i have noticed so much though, that rather than solve the problem right away we let it fester and burn and hate each other and become bitter, i myself am just as guilty of this, RA, If anything i said earlier offended you i sincerely am sorry, in all honesty i know that teen mania has hurt people, its hurt me too, but it has also changed my life and grown me, before i came here my faith was Luke warm, i hated people, i was selfish, perverted, this place helped me break free of that and truly get to know God on such a better level, we as inherently flawed and imperfect beings will always produce inherently flawed and imperfect creations and establishments etc.. so to expect that you wont be offended or hurt or that it will be perfect in everything it does is a flawed expectation in itself, my point in saying this is especially in a big organization it should be expected there will be people hurt, its that how its dealt with that matters, truly RA and all you others i am sorry you have been hurt, i hope you all get a chance to work the issues out and have peace, please if there is any bitter please try not to let it fester i personally know the damage it causes. also to bring this to light, i dont know if this is your intention RA, but when you call TM a cult and say its a terrible place etc… it to interns feels like a direct insult to them thus they respond, i hope you can forgive TM for whatever wrongdoings, i must say this and this is also from personal experience but a coined phrase i have heard often, there is no such thing as a one sided coin, in meaning that there is never just one right side and one wrong side, in life its usually you are right and wrong and they are right and wrong as well, anyways you will be in my prayers, forgive, forget, have peace, be filled with the love of God and be renewed! God bless.

Hey RA, just curious, where did you work in TM?

Wow! I stumbled on this blog accidently when looking for more info because my daughter wants to attend HA in Texas or Branson, MO. I will really have to investigate this. I am so confused.

To the parents that get on here plz dont listen to wait the say call the honor academy ask interns that come here even ask the intrens parents that have had 2 or 3 kids come here about what they think… Also pray with your kids about them coming here that was the biggest thing for me i prayed again sayin if you want me to go then u proved and get me in… and he did my internship is alomost paid off… Another thing i want to say alumnia im sry you got hurt but one of the commitments u made here was that u would not speak ill about the HA and u broke your word which is wrong and the tounge is a powerful thing it says in the bible its a double egde sword… i’m not tryin to be mean to u i just want u to think yea its hard at the HA believe me i know but God has streched me so much this year then more then before he did say it wasn’t be easy… I can honestly say if i didnt come here and get my relationship back on to God i would not be here and Mr hasz says before he speaks that if he hurts u in anyway to let him know because he doesnt want us to be hurt or leave with hur still in us

Last anonymous – I think if you’d really read this blog you’d find that everything you’ve mentioned here has been addressed. Before you accuse us of things, it might be good to look at all the information especially the fact that many of us have taken our issues to TM’s leadership including Ron Luce and Dave Hasz with no response back (see the true stories section). Also, don’t you find it a little odd that, if TM has nothing to hide, they make it a point to have interns make a commitment to “never speak ill” of them? Wouldn’t a healthy organization welcome constructive criticism from it’s members (past and current) vs. ignoring them and accusing them of being, at best, unsubmissive to authority and, at worst, demon possessed? (again, see true stories section). I know I thought a lot like you while I was there and it wasn’t until later that I was able to recognize the manipulation and spiritual abuse I experienced. People are free to make the choices they feel are best, however, I think most of us that post to this blog believe it’s important that parents and potential interns alike have a chance to see both sides before making an informed decision.

Anon @3:18; While we may have made a commitment to not speak ill of the HA that commitment was voided when we were abused, mentally, physically, emotionally.

And what about the commitment that the HA makes to the families of interns to protect them, teach them, mentor them? How are they honoring that commitment when they have someone sign a statement that they will not press charges for the physical assault they endured during an LTE? (See Niki’s story)?

How dare you come here and try to condemn us for breaking a commitment about not speaking ill about a place that did wrong.

My new favorite verse of the day:

“They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious.
‘Peace, peace,’ they say,
when there is no peace.” (Jeremiah 6:14 / 8:11).

The very fact that HA requires the students to “make a commitment that they will not speak ill of the HA” is sufficient evidence that something is deeply wrong with it. Hint: Who wants to speak ill of things they see as good and healthy?

this is a BEAUTIFUL VERSE! I love it.

Haha, Eric, that was definitely one of my favorite verses AT the HA. Ironically, I equated it to how we should totally be world changers, because interns are the only people who care about lost souls!

Gevalt!

Actually, to flesh out what Eric mentioned earlier today, the commitment appears as Tenet 5 in the January 2005 version of the HA Intern Handbook: “I will never portray or allow Teen Mania to be portrayed in a negative light.”

I’ve been known to refer to groups of interns who’d show up in various online comment threads, attempting to defend Teen Mania, as “Tenet 5 enforcement squads.” It wasn’t just about speaking ill of HA or TM, it was about trying to stop others from expressing their opinions.

It’s not clear to me if Tenet 5 still appears this way in print somewhere. Clearly the basic attitude lives on.

I graduated in 2008, and it was still in the handbook, albeit worded differently.

“I will not speak ill of any participant of the Honor Academy; past, present, or future.”

I was driving in the car today with my sister, and she brought up the topic of Teen Mania Ministries (Global Expeditions)–which led to us googling “Honor Academy” and finding this blog. We both went on multiple mission trips with the organization (about 10 years ago), and have several friends who did the same. We all have stories of physical, emotional, and verbal abuse from these trips and we want to caution anyone contemplating any sort of involvement with Teen Mania and all of its affiliates.

I am the sister, and I just grabbed the laptop from my brother because I adamantly want to plead with parents or teenagers to steer clear of Teen Mania. We were brought up well with a good education and are compassionate individuals who were drawn in by the prospect of traveling and helping people. In turn, we were damaged.

In case you missed this prior post by anon, we want to reiterate it here:

“I would classify as a Cult. They meet the four criteria for being one (according to Kanter). The first criteria is geographical separation, where the group isolates themselves from mainstream society (check!). The second is invasion of privacy, where the leaders of the group are involved in every aspect of the member’s personal lives and relationships (check!). The third criteria is rituals, which are things that all the group members do everyday together (check!). The final criteria is transfer of assets, where the individual gives the cult everything they have -such as land, money, their services, and labor all for free (check!).” So i was going to go into an elaborate description about how this could be applied very easily to religion but ill just say this, in reality these four checks, you can apply to nearly anything. (end post)

We challenge any current HA intern, alumni, or mission-tripper to respond to this post without quoting anything from Ron Luce, Dave Hasz, or a 16 year old MAG leader.

–while editing our post, we realized that this blog is only one section of many blogs. to make it easier for people who stumble upon this blog from a google search like us, we decided to paste these helpful links for your convenience–

Part One: http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2009/06/is-teen-mania-cult.html

Part Two: http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2009/06/is-teen-mania-cult-part-2.html

Part Three: http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2009/06/is-teen-mania-cult-part-3.html

And be sure to read Nikki’s story if you haven’t already:

http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2010/05/nikis-story.html

About last year a friend and I went to visit HA, I’d never even heard of the place. We were only there for a day and a half, and it just scared me. I couldn’t shake the feeling that there was something horribly wrong with the place. It felt cult-ish (if that even is a word) To me, the people there seemed brainwashed. Now from reading this, it appears like they really do brainwash people.
But I never attended HA, so I dont really know just how bad it is. But for the people who are recovering from what HA has done to them you’ll be in my prayers. =]

Hey,
I just graduated and I am heading to the Honor Academy in August. I have been on 5 mission trips with Global Expeditions and it will be 6 this summer. I am addressing the recent anonymous about GE mission trips and how about they have been hurt.. Well I can understand where you are coming from.. I have burn hurt by people there but they are not perfect.. and I didn’t take it to heart. Everybody is dealing with things that we might not see and I did my best to love them despite of that. As you know, mission trips push you in ways you haven’t been pushed before and it is a lot of pressure especially for leaders. (my youth leader was a team leader and I was a missionary advisor)No one is perfect. I know this website is about HA but I am taking my experience from the trips and linking them. I have numerous friends who are attending and have attended HA and I feel God’s presence there. I am just speaking what is from my heart. Are we not suppossed not to take offense?? has anyone heard of John Bevere?? There is a book by him called “The Bait of Satan” and it talks about how we can take offense and can lead you down a bad road. Some say I might not know anything since I have not attended HA but I love God with all my heart and I feel this is a place to grow. And growing is not easy.. think about it.. when you had negative experiences it could be a chance to grow in a way you haven’t if you were not hurt. I am not downplaying anyones pain and I do not want to bash anybody… I am speaking in love. Even though I have read all these it still has not deterred me from attending HA.

Alice,
Hold true to what and where God is calling you to do.
The presence of God IS at the HA.

I used to read John Bevere when I was an intern. He is definitely king of fear-induced Christianity and the legalistic earning of love, with a huge stress on Satan and the “Lake of Fire.” Good fit for TM, I guess. In fact, if you go to his website, you’ll see his “Guiding Principles” are “Purity, Power, Excellence, Integrity,” again stressing word-of-faith abundance and a focus on Satan and hell in the Statement of Faith. Love and grace are simply side comments that found their way into the quote Bible verses.

John Bevere is not my role model for Jesus’ gospel.

@Alice– It’s true that some of my greatest times of spiritual growth came when people hurt me. But it doesn’t follow that those were wonderful, kind, and helpful acts of love on their part. (I forgave them for being jerks, but they were still jerks.) And it definitely doesn’t follow that you should go do something you know will be hurtful just to see if it will turn out good. Frankly, that sounds like spiritualized masochism.

There’s no such thing as a perfect person, relationship, or ministry. There are such things as healthy ones that don’t purposely hurt people. Just because I won’t find the former doesn’t stop me from insisting on the latter.

The Bible actually says we should not give offense–Romans 14. “Make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.”

I once felt God’s presence in a public toilet. I still didn’t want to spend a year there.

Recovering Alumni you must have been really hurt to speak so harshly especially with your condescending tone. The presence of God is everywhere but you know that his presence is stronger when believers come together.. but there is no point discussing because you are pretty set in your opinion.

Erip P. I am not justifying the people who hurt others. I am looking at it from a different view from previous posts.. I wholeheartedly agree with Romans 14. And I am not saying it is okay to purposefully cause others pain. We can’t control what others do but only how you respond to the situation. Big discussion is the leadership at HA. I believe I seen the heart of the leaders. I was there for a missions training one summer and I looked over and I saw Ron Luce pass by and I saw the look on his face. A man after God’s heart just following the call.

I dont want to argue. I just want to let my voice be heard for HA, a place that already feels like home even though I am not there yet..and I did it for the parents reading this website.

lol. R.A. you sound a little harsh there for real. :)~

@Alice – good luck. Just watch out for when they make you sign a contract saying you will work for them for a year then totally condemn you when you point out the bad sides of the ministry. (that you have no power in changing and yet still have to work for them.)
Also remember – God is in love with you just the way you are and you can not do a single thing that will make Him love you more. Or less. He loves you because He loves you.
He will lead you and guide you. I have no doubt you are right in the center of His hand and no matter where you go or what you do He will bless you and encounter your heart.
🙂

I’m sure that Fred Phelps probably fills like he’s following the call too. I’m sure he believes he’s a man after God’s heart and that the rest of his congregation feel God’s presence with them too at Westboro Baptist Church.

lack of coffee, that should be “feels” not “fills”

Recovering Alumni- I wasn’t angry with the tone you used but I forgive you.

Greets,

I believe the first comment suggesting a name was directed to me. I also know Kyle, as we used to work in the same department (Eva? I believe).

I was removed from the Honor Academy after 5 – 6 months (class of 2006 – 2007). I had only 6 hours to figure how I was to get home… I was bad for the environment, naturally. *rolls eyes*

RA, I have the utmost respect for you and I truly understand where you are coming from. I am also thankful for this blog. But… always a but — I disagree with one thing. And that is, you cannot generalize your experience with every single sole that has stepped out the doors/gates of the HA. Going as far as saying the HA is a cult is, in my opinion, wrong. It almost seems you were thinking a loud? You have, however, made very valid points. But would I go as far as saying HA is a cult? No.

Will your kids be brainwashed with authority? Yes. It’s NOT discipline. Just read the comments of students/interns currently attending the HA. But, please… before you turn down this door, pray about it. If you’ve come to this blog after you’ve prayed heavily, I’d venture to say this program is not for your child. If you feel it is, prepare him/her for strong criticism and key onto what was written above.

You know what I learned from the HA? Nothing. Know what God showed/taught me? A lot. God is the big picture, NOT THE HA. When I was there, I was more afraid of what the HA thought about my actions more than God. Horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE. Did God shut me down for my actions, kick me out on the street? No. The HA did. Do I blame them? Absolutely not! Did they keep my $1,800 dollars a week after I was kicked out (prepaid 3 months)? Yes — a very expensive week if you ask me ;).

@Anon, David doesn’t have enough time to comment on this blog? Really? It’s politics people, politics.

All I can say, is when people leave the HA, most have no idea what to do next. Always being told what to do… those are followers… not leaders. The transition is difficult.

To end:
The experience has been interesting. Did I enjoy it? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes I would (and finish this time ;), ha). Do I believe the intentions of the HA are good? Yes I do. After ESOL, do you need new shoes? Ha, yes.

My best,
Kevin

P.S: it might seem as if I am contradicting myself throughout this rant/ramble. But understand, my finial opinion, was measure of the pros/cons.

Wanted to touch a little more on something… sorry.

P.P.S: I had to learn that God, so perfect He, forgave me and still forgives me. Every single individual that has attended/attends the HA has sinned.

“For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

Thank you Jesus. Right? Right.

I used to hang my head to God… and ultimately stopped praying. I was ashamed and that my friends, leads people from God. This is what was taught at the HA. Maybe they should consider teaching Jesus to interns in the last few weeks of the year?

Hey RA,

“So, do I think the Teen Mania Honor Academy is a cult? Based on the criteria, I would say that Teen Mania falls a bit shy of being an actual full blown cult. However, their cult-like culture is definitely a spiritually abusive environment. For many, it takes years to recover. Sadly, some never recover.”

Right. Reading through all these comments has blind sided me :/.

We’ll talk soon, I will be sending you an email tomorrow. Tired!

Alice– I admire your attitude. Focus on this sentence: “I am not saying it is okay to purposefully cause others pain.” Good. I just wish the people who thought up ESOAL thought the same way!

If I were you I would definitely do some reading up on the subject of Spiritual Abuse (try these links) before going to HA. It’s good that you already know (at least in theory) how to deal with a hurtful situation, but it will help to have your eyes open to specific hurtful things that are likely to happen at HA. Perhaps you’ll be spared some of suffering that way. Forewarned is forearmed.

—–

Kevin: “Maybe they should consider teaching Jesus to interns in the last few weeks of the year?”

Raising the question, what about the other 49 weeks, too? What the heck is the point of having a Christian ministry that doesn’t teach Jesus?

RE “cult,” I’ve gone back and forth as well (I’m not an HA alumnus but have studied religious abuse extensively). I’d say “If only they kept people there indefinitely instead of a year at a time, it would absolutely count as a Cult with a capital C.” So a cult with one minor variation? Or a spiritually abusive near-cult? Either way, bottom line, people are being hurt in the name of God and that’s wrong, wrong, wrong.

I definitely read “Cult with a capital C” as an entirely different word.

Cheers Eric!

Let me restate what I said about Jesus (I gave it a little more thought while on the road today).

I would be lying if I said they didn’t teach Jesus to interns. They did, but they missed one very important aspect. Let me explain via my experience:

During my 4+ years away from the HA, I questioned myself on whether or not I would go to Heaven. Can you believe that? Only picked up my Bible once… because I was ashamed. How could a person so spiritually high, fail — day in and day out? I never failed through the eyes of Jesus and it took me years to figure that out. Something so very basic… so very important.

Now I can read my Bible without shame and/or guilt. Now I can do God’s work without question.

The HA needs to set (don’t know if they do… I would imagine not) a few lessons on what interns (soon to be graduates) will experience outside the world of HA.

We will all fall short of the glory of God, no matter how perfect we think our walk with the Lord is. Seek God… not perfection. He will make you the way He wants… regardless. And that, through the eyes of Jesus, we are saved. Yay!

Ekk, I hate to venture from the topic at hand, just wanted to throw that out there, as it has been my personal experience.

My best!

CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT CULT

Ron Lucifer owes me a lot of money for therapy. After I paid him thousands upon thousands of dollars to work for him, it’s the least he could do.

Hey guys,
I found this blog based on Dave’s response letter, and decided to check it out.

I’ve been at TM for almost two years, and have had my share of ups and downs. I was on the January Ministry Team and, let me tell you, we had our fair share of “shaftings.”

I’ve also had a lot of good friends who were dismissed/left due to disagreements with the leadership. But overall, I think I’ve come to this conclusion:

I read these comments and I find a lot of people falling into the same mindset I had for a while. The same mindset Paul addresses in the book of Romans. We are focused on meeting an impossible standard. We see the standards of the HA as a new law, seemingly imposed on us by God. We forget that we have been freed from the law through Jesus.

“What then shall we say? That the Law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the Law, I would not have known sin.”

“The very commandment that promised life brought death to me.”

So we’ve got a problem here… We’re all sinners, given a standard that we can’t attain.

“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.”

You may be thinking, “HA law is not God’s law.” I agree. However, the heart is the same. Just like Adam conveyed God’s law to Eve, “You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it…” The HA has put guards in place on the approach to God’s law. Moving on…

“You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” -this is the key here.

Being in the Spirit, desiring to please God, is the mindset we as followers of Christ need adopt. The rules are guidelines to check ourselves against, to point out the sin, not a god that we serve and try to please.

I think that, if anywhere, this is where we at the HA fall short. Legislating morality has never worked.

I think thats it for now…

(The verses were from Romans 6 & 7)

Peter,

Good thoughts, but, no. Not quite.

“You may be thinking, “HA law is not God’s law.” I agree. However, the heart is the same.”

This is absolutely untrue. The Heart of God and the heart of the HA could not be more separate.

God’s Heart = Unconditional Love and actions flowing out of that love.

HA’s Heart = Legalism, Pharisee-type law, and Love-less standards by which they JUDGE every believer.

shouldcareless,

I see your point on that. The HA can come off as super-strict. The thing is, so can God. I mean, He demands perfection, right?

Ok everyone I have a serious problem with you alumni telling current interns they should quit the HA right now, or discouraging potentials from going. What if it is God’s will for them to attend, or finish the year? What if more good is going to come than harm? Because sometimes we are allowed to experience negatives because the overall positive is worth it. I think no one here can tell someone who they do not know what God’s will is for their life!
It’s not your job to tell an intern to pack their bags and leave the HA! We can’t project our will onto someone else’s life and pretend it’s God’s will for them. Please stop telling current interns to leave the HA. I have enough beef with TM and HA, but will not pretend to know God’s will for current interns and neither can you.

Anon 10:05- I don’t think a single person here has told any future intern that it’s NOT God’s will for them to attend. Most of us have actually said, “PRAY ABOUT IT”. A few of us have said, “dude just don’t go”, but we’re speaking as ourselves, not as God.

Yet the HA tells interns with utmost certainty that it IS God’s will for them to go. Not cool.

@ peter

God demands perfection? Seriously, that just made my heart hurt a little. A lot.

God demands nothing. He asks us to Love and be obedient to His Way. He invites us to Love as He Loves, and to Live and He Lives.

“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.”
(Matthew 11:28-30)

-shouldcareless

Sorry, that didn’t come across correctly…

God demands perfection (Romans 3:23) = problem
-solved by Jesus’ death.

so, maybe the HA needs more Grace/Mercy. Idk, I’ve had plenty of both from them.

sorry peter…i don’t quite get it. can you expound on that scripture and thought?

umm actually god does demand something, its to follow his ways or go to hell. pretty raw deal if you ask me.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

—John 6:28-29

And to be honorable and passionate and have integrity and commitment and clean living and find your purpose and never ever ever drink beer. –Liars 6:68

@anon– Depends on how you understand “His ways.” The Bible says that all God wants is for us to love Him and love our neighbors (Romans 13:10). People who decide not to love invariably become pretty miserable, for obvious reasons.

So God’s “deal” is like saying to a man in the desert, “Here, have some water!” True, if he doesn’t take the water he might die of thirst, but that’s not the fault of the oasis. It’s the nature of the thing itself, not a raw condition.

I love how people use the Bible in twisted ways to spread their own influence. I love how the nature of Christianity has changed to fit “our” means.

Wow,After reading this blog, I am not letting my daughter attend next year! It reminds me of the saying, Where there’s smoke there’s fire!

I think that the question of whether an organisation “is a cult” or not is actually a bit misleading. It’s how we are used to seeing things, but I think some good questions might include to what degree the group contributes to society, or to what degree the group damages its followers. The criteria you mentioned are excellent indicators for the latter.

i dont get all this?? how?! what hurt?!! what abuse?? is there really any thing else like HA out there?? i applied for HA and CCM and i hope i make it in i have no other options and cant afford college… what explain the “effects” how did this damage you? where was God when you were going thru all this huh?? EXPLAIN PLEASE

You’re much more likely to be able to afford college than the HA. Grants, Scholarships, Student Loans, Working while you’re in school. None of these are otions to help you pay the ridiculous “tuition” to work for TMM and suffer these gross abuses. This is far from your only option after High School. This, as far as I’m concerned is NOT an option! Read the rest of the site to find the “effects”

well how has it effected you?? like mentaly emotionaly spiritualy?

I have been accepted to the HA and am to start in January, but after seeing this, I have some questions. I do not understand what damage has been done. If someone could please let me know before I make this huge ( and possibly wrong) decision what could happen to hurt or spiritually abuse me. I need to know.

Not to mention the financial abuse (not sure if that’s an actual term, but it applies to TM). Countless thousands of dollars are squeezed out of interns and when they fall behind or can’t pay, they are told how they must not be trusting God enough, or it is beaten into their heads how badly they have failed. I feel like I could go on forever about this, so I’m going to stop now.

“And to be honorable and passionate and have integrity and commitment and clean living and find your purpose and never ever ever drink beer. –Liars 6:68”

Oh Eric, you’re always spot on.

Amanda,
I think that it is important to let you know that not EVERYONE who goes through this program leaves feeling this way.

Not to take away from the pain that people have gone through, because it is tremendous, but not everyone has suffered like the stories on here.

That being said, I still fully support the recovery that is happening on this site and I feel that it is vital to the Body of Christ to have a support system such as this.

it is important to say that not everyone has experienced this and you are all just unforgiving and bitter and hatefull and most likley in sin because you are missing the call god has for your life.maybe you got kicked out of the program, i am sorry about that, you messed up gods a plan for your life and now you only get the b plan. to bad. your in sin, because you made a commitment and maybe you quit, well… let your yes be your yes, and keep your oath even when it hurts, oops again your in sin. and my favorite, you shouldve submitted to your spiritual authority, you didnt and nowyour in sin again, rebellion!. darn… hhm how do you get out with out being in sin? get hurt, nope not really, injuries are no excuse becuase if you have enough faith jesus can get yio through. and if you quit with an injury we will all look down on you for beinng “weak” hey thanks for the mention of weak up therecomment anonymous earlier. anyhow. yeah i hate these programs, ive been in em, led in them and had my picture taked and video of us naked!!!!! nude. for the viewing pleasure of all the gay pastors who when they werent trying to make you feel like you were in the shadow of shame they were trying to get in your pants!!!! ahahaha pastor led, “spirit missions”!!!! got the pics to prove and ive seen the college coed intern smut library.. crazy stuff guys, your right not everyone turned out all messed up, not everyone had such a bad experience. but really if your not one of us then shut the &&*$ up.

ok

i feel like cutting myself when i hear these pro HA TM folks talk.

It makes me physically sick, took years to break off the yoke folks from my internship put on me and these people are walking around loving big brother still,, aahahahahh crazy!

I have read through about half the comments and know there are differing views. Concerning business, I am a pastor and the business side of ministry is always there. It takes money to run a ministry. “Be not slothful in business” the Word says. Sometimes it does seem like it takes way too much time to run the practical side of ministry but it must be done.
Some comments were made about listening to secular music. I think listening to it or watching secular movies is like the frog in the beaker analogy. Americans are so used to seeing and hearing junk that they are totally tolerant of it. We should be shocked. It shouldn’t just be a TM policy in my opinion uless you want your spiritual life to wain.
I haven’t ever been to TM myself but know a student there. I think that the practices there are so “radical” that it is natural to assume they are “cultic” at worst and irrational at best. But God is looking for a church without spot or wrinkle. A church that hates evil and loves righteousness. At the same time we are to do our best to love those who aren’t walking in truth and bring them into the light. If you’ve been walking in pitch dark, even a candle seems great! But the church of today needs a whole lot more light and must get dissatisfied with candle light if we are going to impact the world. Fine line but Jesus didn’t call us to live in half darkness and half light. I believe some kids are going to react totally different to the experience for many different reasons. Their reaction is their reality. So TM, discern where kids are at and give them room to grow without condemnation but challenge them to move out of where they are and on to where they need to be. Its easy to “feel” condemned when your standard is different than your peers or the church/organization you are participating in. Some in my church leave because their standard is much different than ours. I’m sure, I would be feel some condemnation if I walked into a church whose standards were higher than mine.
So far as a whole, I’m neutral on the issues at hand but think TM would do well to hear the reoccurring themes of discontent and do something about it. Maybe seek the counsel of seasonded leaders in the church to deam whether or not the practices are too radical or not. Does the good outweigh the bad??? Something to think about.

TM/HA turned my God fearing/Christ loving daughter completely away from Christ and the church seven years ago. She still has no desire to return.

Parents be careful. HA and ATF are two DIFFERENT things!!!!!!

While I can understand that what the HA believes in and what they taught had many flaws, I can not say that the experience was a bad one. Having gone myself I know that EVERYTHING that was optional from beginning to end. What I did disagree with, and I understand the pain some may have gone through, I saw in AI’s. I can not say that I went through the same experience. The side of the HA that everyone speaks about and the one I saw came from my general lack of interest and laziness. When it comes down to it I almost paid no attention to what was going on there as far as leadership. I don’t remember any of the classes, I realized ESOAL was a personal commitment and i rang out 12 hours in, the only LTE’s I liked were World Awareness and Fasting. There was so much to learn from just having existed on campus with everyone. What I thank the HA the most for is the love I have my God now and the relationships that I now carry. What I will say though is that open minded they are not. Hasz was quick to cut down anything he didn’t agree with and the same could be said of Ron. While it certainly is a big issue, I can not say that the HA is a bad decision. I truly am sorry to those whose experience resulted in a tragedy. I pray for you and hope that God may heal your hearts and minds. It should not have been what you all had to see.

So I’ve already been accepted to HA and this blog brings me weird questions. What is the “can not speak ill” about HA mean? So you can’t say anything HA does wrong ever? and is esoal completely optional or do they make it “optional”

I’ve also heard (and maybe someone can back this up) that if you opt out of ESOAL, you will be put on cleaning duty during the event. You aren’t allowed to just chill out in your dormroom anymore (as it was back when I participated) or leave campus. I interpret this as a form of punishment (though I know many people may not) for choosing not to go along with an “optional” retreat.

Wow. And it all really does come back to this.

i have read a few of these comments. I will be a future intern at the HA in aug 19. Some of you are going throat to throat with each other. That’s deff not what we should be doing. we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Some people my not agree with things done at the HA and some people may agree. even if you were Hurt by your experiences, letting go of the past is always the first step. What is right for you might be wrong for someone else. The HA and TM is not for everyone i do admit. i know for a fact that there will be times that i hate it there and there will be times were i love it and everything in between. I know it will be hard and challenging and i dont know what will happen. but i will believe in God to support me, no matter what i go through. hurtful or supportive. no matter what, you are there for God. and if you do not feel like you are getting closer to God then that path my not be right for you. but is right for others. It may not be a lack of faith but instead, how you learn and grow in Christ. 🙂 my fav scripture is Psalm 42:1-5. it says
“Psalm 42

1-3 A white-tailed deer drinks from the creek;
I want to drink God,
deep draughts of God.
I’m thirsty for God-alive.
I wonder, “Will I ever make it—
arrive and drink in God’s presence?”
I’m on a diet of tears—
tears for breakfast, tears for supper.
All day long
people knock at my door,
Pestering,
“Where is this God of yours?”

4 These are the things I go over and over,
emptying out the pockets of my life.
I was always at the head of the worshiping crowd,
right out in front,
Leading them all,
eager to arrive and worship,
Shouting praises, singing thanksgiving—
celebrating, all of us, God’s feast!

5 Why are you down in the dumps, dear soul?
Why are you crying the blues?
Fix my eyes on God—
soon I’ll be praising again.
He puts a smile on my face.
He’s my God. “

this should be our focus. wither its with the HA or your own special church or in your own special way its your relation ship with your God. Do what you feel is best. Go where God is telling you to go. We are all apart of the body of Christ no matter our differences. 🙂 God bless you all.

Cori,

Thank you for your comments. First, I would like to make sure that you understand that not everyone who visits and comments on this site is a Christian (me for example). So, you cannot expect people who do not believe in your God to also act as you believe they should.

Secondly, this blog is more than about letting go of the past. Most of us (regulars at least) have healed and have forgiven TM for their actions. We, however, are not standing idly by while TM continues to abuse and hurt teens. That is where this blog is at now.. we are trying to expose the lies of TM to others to prevent as many people as possible from being hurt by TM.

I Completely understand. I honestly do not think that everyone should act a specific way. Everyone is diffferent and have the right to act as they will and i will not condemn or judge anybody, and I understand how you may feel that TM my hurt people, but they do what they say they will do. it is a Relentless search of yourself and a Relentless Pursuit of God. it is tough, especially if you are not spiritually and emotionally prepared. But i am sorry you all feel this way. I do wish the best for you and i will be praying for all of you. best wishes 🙂

Cori– Since you say you “dont know what will happen,” I suggest a good way to prepare yourself would be reading some of the nearly 100 True Stories you can find on this website. They are from alumni from the past 15 years to the present, and they go into a lot of detail about what you can expect to happen at Honor Academy. Also be sure to watch the ESOAL videos!

It’s not that “we feel that TM may hurt people,” it’s that TM has hurt people and does hurt people, and here are some of them.

Psalm 42 is awesome and was one thing that helped me through a hard time at a (different) emotionally abusive Christian ministry. Still, if someone asked me if they should go join that ministry, I would tell them not to– not because I haven’t let go of the past, but because I don’t believe that people who hurt people that way are really serious about pursuing God.

There are plenty of other places to relentlessly pursue God without having to learn about “integrity” from documented liars!

I was talking with one of my former roommates who is a current intern. He told me that he had meetings with Dave Hasz and Dave Hasz himself admits that the HA is cult like….. but two of the main differences between the HA and your standard cult is that the HA does not grow their own food(although food on campus would be better if they did) and that interns are allowed to leave whenever they choose to.

So really, there is no difference since, well– When I was there you had to get approval to leave campus for any extended length of time (ie vacation, weekend). And I had to sign in/out in order to leave campus (which isn’t a bad thing). I had a curfew (again, not a bad thing). But, all of those things together make it unlikely that interns are “able to leave whenever they choose to.”

Anonymous – not all cults grow their own food. So that alone doesn’t disqualify TM from being a cult. Also I’m curious by what you ment when your said “interns are allowed to leave whenever they choose”. Do you mean that they can come and go as Shannon understood it, or do you mean that interns can leave, as in not longer be affiliated with TM, when they choose. If it is the latter I would point out that yes an intern can leave, however there is immense pressure to stay in God’s will by staying at TM, not breaking a promise etc. Also if someone does leave they are often shunned by interns that do stay as well as staff. And THAT is a classic cult technique.

“…but two of the main differences between the HA and your standard cult is that the HA does not grow their own food(although food on campus would be better if they did) and that interns are allowed to leave whenever they choose to.”

First, a group of people growing their own food does not a cult make. I know that Dave Hasz knows this too, so I’m not sure why he continues to reference it as an example (as to why TM is not a cult). To me, it sounds like an arrogant wink-wink-you-know-what-I-mean response to a serious question.

And second… yes, “interns are allowed to leave whenever they choose to…”, but are highly discouraged not to. Within the culture of the HA, to leave is to fail. HA participants are asked to sign a contract agreeing to finish the year. If they do not finish the year, they will have broken this contract. They are taught that if they are not able to finish (ie, leave early) they will never be able to complete anything in their lives (jobs, marriage, important commitments, etc…). So, yes, they are allowed to leave but to do so is to fail the HA (and within HA culture, failing the HA and failing God are interchangable ideas).

“He told me that he had meetings with Dave Hasz and Dave Hasz himself admits that the HA is cult like….. but two of the main differences between the HA and your standard cult is that the HA does not grow their own food(although food on campus would be better if they did) and that interns are allowed to leave whenever they choose to.”

I TOLD YOU ALL

No but seriously… really Dave? LOL. Then again, he used some excuse in class before about being on the Football Team and how that’s MORE of a cult.

I dunno, some kind of deflection.

I just realized that I said “highly discouraged not to” which doesn’t make any sense. Sorry about that!

Here are several lists of cult characteristics from authorities on the subject:

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/langone_michael_checklis.htm
http://www.howcultswork.com/
http://rickross.com/faq.html
http://winformation.us/upci/cults.htm

Not one of them lists “Grows their own food.” Which, when you think about it, is quite sensible of them. What’s so cultic about farming?

“Free to leave whenever they want” is deceptive, since the “freedom” at HA is manipulated with a common cultic technique called Bounded Choice. They may be “free” to leave whenever they want to, but will they want to if they’re indoctrinated to believe that God hates quitters?

If you cannot see him trying to bullshit you with this grow your own food line you are thinking like a fool.

Are you effing kidding me right now?????

ALLLLLLL the abusive characteristics are there and he pulls his own ridiculous, made up “but see… but see…” out of his hiney and people let him off the hook?

You’re good, Dave. You’re real good. Asshole.

i was helped by this blog and i honestly was going to attend i had already sent in my application fee but than i tweeted about campus preview weekend and today someone who shall remain nameless told me that the ha was a spiritually abusive cult i loved the honor academy (because i was ignorant about what was really going on)so i defended the ha but than my friend who is devout christian and has studied cults told me everything that was written on this blog the honor academy is not good even during the conversation i had with my friend i was convinced that it was god’s will for me to be there or the ha wouldn’t have accepted me but now i realize that just because the ha did accept me doesn’t mean its god’s will for me or anyone else just because they accepted you i am now i praying MYSELF not someone I’ve never met myself for gods will in my life now I’m not saying that its not good for others to pray for not at all because having others praying for you is good and really beneficial but you should also pray yourself too and actually listen for god not well i got a good feeling so it must be god’s will like i did I’m now praying for what christian college god wants me to go to here is a link about ron luce and what he really believes http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/ron-luce-of-battlecry-supporting-ministry-of-word-of-faith-jezebel-heretics-marilyn-and-sarah-hickey/

please respond to me via e-mail dakotac.2011@gmail.com as i wont always be able to keep up with comments

Dakota,

I am the one that tweeted you. My personal twitter is @shannonkish

I am glad to hear that you did a bit more research on the HA before committing to a year there. I know that the HA seems like a great place, but as you can read from many of the stories here, there are a lot of dangerous practices at the HA that caused a lot of harm to a lot of us.

Welcome to the community and I hope that you will continue to grow in your walk with the Lord.

Shannon Kish

What if they are a little out there in their ways but if no one thought outside of the box we would be hundreds of years behind where we are in technology and life. Granted religion is falling at a rapid pace compared to hundreds of years ago but I believe the HA is attempting to ignite peoples love of God in a different way. How many people just go through the motions through their first 18 years of life while attending church, bible study, youth group, and other religious functions? I myself is one of those people who have struggled with having my flame for God stay on fire and just being around my friend who is a current HA student has my flame bursting.

And I have read many posts about how it costs money and you have to work 30-40 hours a week for free. That may suck but it benefitting things like mission trips and other things that would cost a lot more without the “willing” labor. Even though you may hate it while you do it you probably learned a valuable lesson and that is doing something good without getting any tangible reward from it other then self-satisfaction.

And it frustrates me that this “recoveringalumni” started this website because even though the HA has probably done some bad things to some people I can guarantee that it has put more good in the world then bad. Everyone and everything has their flaws but you can learn to deal with them if their intentions are good and they are putting more good into the world then bad.

Anonymous – I appreciate that you want to see the good in TM but your reasoning and your research are very flawed.

Your saying my opinion is flawed? I have read many of your comments and you are quite good at spinning things around on people which can be good in many situations but bad as well. It is almost corrupting because you are bashing people’s opinions without actually seeming like a bad person but I myself can read people quite well even through words and not seeing their body motion. I may be just blind to what the HA has done but the things i am hearing from people who have RECENTLY gone their is nothing but good.

Anon I would highly suggest that when your friend comes backs when they become so lacking in grace with you because you don’t “rise to their standard” for something small like wearing a neckline slightly too low. These are the things that poison the body and Teen Mania is full of these things. It wasn’t the 50 hour work weeks (YES 50 it says 31 but then there is always some emergency that has you working longer in some way for the ministry) It wasn’t even the obnoxious way that every single person within those gates felt they could “speak into your life” about how long you held that side hug with that guy friend or if the angle that you hugged him at could be considered less than proper for a girl…. It’s that once these kids leave the HA they expect the people in their normal life including pastors to conform to THEM and become prideful because the closing teachings before the students leave are designed to make them think they are better than other Christians. The think is that NO ONE is better than anyone else in the body of Christ. My pastor points out that person who isn’t saved and is a drug addict is barely 2 steps below you no matter HOW GOOD you appear and those steps those involved in accepting Christ. In working directly under Ron Luce I saw his temper I saw how little he thinks of the world… This man isn’t a good christian being he’s a sociopath who thinks that the world should A) be all like him and B)worship the ground he walks on.

“I may be just blind to what the HA has done but the things i am hearing from people who have RECENTLY gone their is nothing but good.”

This is the fundamental problem with your research, Anon.

Anon,

If the ha was a cult only because you work 40 hour a week then i would agree with you. But, sadly yhat is only a small piece of the puzzle.

Real Christianity is not about whether our good works can outweigh our bad, or about trying to quantify how “on fire” we can be. It’s about loving Jesus and loving our neighbors.

That’s why I think Teen Mania is a cult, and I didn’t even have to spin anything around on anyone!

I am in no way a TM supporter but I do want to make one point that often times frustrates me about this blog. I went to HA 10 years ago. I made some friends and pretty much enjoyed my time there. I understand completely that not everyone had my experience and I don’t in any way invalidate others horrible experience just because I did not have much in problems. I do admit then when I returned home I was definitely arrogant and it took some time to reassimilate into “normal” life. I am not debating about the cult like aspects of the HA, I agree there are some there. The comment that seems to be prevalent is that everyone got messed up there and if you don’t think you did, just give it time and it will come out. First of all, that is not promoting healing, just the opposite, making people fear that something is going to come out at a later time when maybe they just had a better experience. In a way the people who have bad experiences sometime invalidate the people who had good ones, much the same way that hurting people have had their comments invalidated in the past. Just something that people should be careful of.

Chris, I can see what you are saying on some level. Something about what you said doesn’t sit right with me, but I can’t put my finger on it at the moment.

Not acknowledging or identifying past hurts doesn’t change their negative impact on your life today. That’s what I have trouble with in Chris’ comment. Things we were taught were essential to loving God were and are wrong. Attitudes that were promoted were and are wrong. Being treated and treating others the way we were taught to as interns was and is wrong. Ignoring the negative impact those teachings are having on your life now doesn’t change that they are having them.

Even if you had best friends there, great adults around you, ideal work placement, there were still things that are and were very wrong going on that you were forced to accept. Ignoring that doesn’t change it, it only hurts you longer.

catsaved – I agree with you. The way I understood Chris’ comment is that some people didn’t internalize those harmful teachings and so they were able to have a non-damaging experience. If they did latch on to the HA’s teachings, then I would agree that they’ve been negatively affected by the HA, whether or not they realize it.

CatSaved, That is the exact type of post that i am referring to. If I were to say that you misunderstood your experience at TM and it really wasn’t as bad as you think, and that later on down the road you will come to realize that, you would rightfully label me an insensitive jerk who had no idea what you truly experienced. Yet since I had a different experience I instead read, “just give it time, soon you will realize how much damage they caused you” “It will just hurt you more later on” I don’t think that is promoting healing, it seems more like dragging me down into a hole.

I guess I have to agree with you that there are obviously certain things that I didn’t internalize because I didn’t agree with them. I am yet to find a church or ministry that i don’t have any disagreements with either and expect that for my whole life. I still was “successful” in the eyes of TM while there for my year. I became an ACA after Jan arrived and while i didn’t stay a 2nd year it wasn’t because I hated the place, or wasn’t approached about going down the CA road, it just felt like it was time to move on. I also wanted to start dating again 🙂

I view it as my responsibility to make sure everything that I hear lines up with the word of God. Now I think that might be a heavy responsiblity for 18 year olds and I think that is one of many mistakes that HA makes. Not encouraging us to test the words of Hasz and Luce with scripture. Although I do remember a guest speaker saying things along the lines of we had evil spirits in our pillows and things like that. I remember having a special meeting where Hasz told us that wasn’t true and we had to see if it lined up with the Bible. Haha, I bet they were embarassed.

Sorry for rambling, just my thoughts on the matter. I do care for you all and I am sorry that some of you were treated the way you were and I was too self-absorbed to see and offer help and love. I hope you can forgive me for that. I also hope that we are all careful not to invalidate others experiences.

Chris,

I think it is important to understand that recognizing that you have been hurt is the first step in healing.

We all, genuinely believed everything we were told at the HA and some of us still struggle with letting go of some of those dangerous teachings.

I think by explaining to someone that what they have been through may have been a great experience at the time, and that what they were taught is damaging and that they may or may not feel the affects of that later is an IMPORTANT part of healing.

I work with kids (4-18) and I have some girls who don’t realize that having sex with an older man, regardless of the consent, is rape. My telling them that they were raped is not to hurt them, but to inform them that what happened was wrong and to educate them. Understanding that is vital to their healing.

I think the same concept applies here. There is no question that some of the teachings (that have been taught since day 1 of the HA) are bad/false/dangerous. The internship, regardless of what HS and DH has said, hasn’t changed much in regards to the teachings over the past 15 years. Because of that, and because of the fact that we have evidence of this, we can confidently tell those that have graduated the HA recently or in the future that they were taught bad/false/dangerous things. They can do what they want with that information—

In fact, some have accepted and realized that this is the case and are now on the path to healing. Others, have blatantly told us that we are wrong.

I don’t find this to be any different than providing education up front to those that are seeking to attend the HA.

Maybe I am completely wrong. I certainly don’t have all the answers, but this is just two cents.

I appreciate the comment Shannon, I think I remember you as I think we were there at the same time. I think the important thing that you said was that we may or may not feel effects later on. I couldn’t agree more. I have been following this blog for sometime now and that is the first time i have heard a true advocate of the blog say we may not feel the effects negatively. I truly appreciate that.

I also think that this blog serves a much needed purpose as a stern warning for those thinking about attending HA. You should never blindly follow something without getting both sides of the coin, and even if you choose to attend you need to take everything you hear with a grain of salt and realize that Hasz and Luce are just regular men, not ordained, and giving what they feel is the best teaching. This does not necessarily mean it is all correct. Thanks all

Wow- I was just looking on here to find out where HA is since a friend at my church is going to be attending there this Fall. Um you guys will really think my church is a cult. We are United Pentecostals and yep, we have been called a cult too because we speak in tongues(but these are not drunk as ye suppose), we don’t cut our hair, we don’t wear pants, we don’t drink, we don’t cuss our neighbor(even with acronyms)we believe in ONE God and not the Trinity, we baptize in Jesus name only, not Father son and HG- go ahead and let the name calling begin! It’s easy to label something a cult when you are out there looking in. If you are in love with what you are in, then good for you! I was a drug addicted, permiscuous, broken person, on alcohol, cigarrettes, cocaine, and have been delivered for over 11 years, totally delivered- not IN recovery- I will never say that I am an alcoholic- that’s a lie(that person went down in the water and never came back up). I am healed from where I came from-THAT was bondage- this is liberty. I know who I am and who I worship and exactly what I’m doing. No need to try to convince me- there are lots of people who come and go in every denomination and have bad experiences. Ask 10 witnesses to any event and you will get 10 different versions. I always heard the bible could summed up into 1 word: submission. Not everyone can submit to leadership and follow. Look at Gehazi(sp?)- he was Elisha’s servant. He got mad cause he wasn’t getting everything handed to him simply because he wasn’t “the man of God” and decided he wanted his own table and his own bed. That’s the last you hear of him. God replaced him…..Living for God is not for the faint of heart- I press toward the mark of the HIGH calling.

cool story bro

The ability to define a group as a cult is based primarily on their BEHAVIORS not on their beliefs.

If I had to sum up the whole Bible in one word it would be love.

Promiscuous, sorry misspelled that one- not part of my vocabulary anymore! 🙂

Well, my people are defined as a cult by what we do, what we believe, and what we don’t do. Being labeled a cult is like being labeled a racist, it is a trigger word that makes people stand at attention and brings a whole load of baggage of negativity and fear with it and so it is pulled out like a big ol’ gun when needed to make a better point. And more frequently than that, we are labeled “legalists”. It’s funny to me that word is used most often by other Christians, they call my submission to God in everything I do, including how I worship, pray, talk, dress, etc: legalism. My sinner friends are much more respectful and actually admire our attempt to live as “Real” as we can. It’s crazy how Christians can be so hard toward those who are more willing to give more of themselves than what is comfortable to “average Christians”- we are also labeled zealots and heretics. I have been told that I “don’t have to do all that to live for God”- who determines what God requires of someone’s personal walk? Who determines what steps God has ordered of his brother? Most people don’t know the will of God for themselves, much less for someone else. Easy to throw stones, but I am always aware not to throw stones at my brother when the devil, your enemy is the real target you should be focused on.

OGP – If anyone responds to you in an angry manner, it’s probably less because of your personal religious choices and more because you’re using triggering language. This is a recovery group and not a place for you brag about how great of a christian you are.

Good luck in your endeavours.

I have a question… Did you ever ask or interview those Alumni who would say that The HA brought them closer to God. Those who say it changed their life for the better. Those who would say that the HA gave them a firm foundation in which to build their relationship with Christ on? Or did you just stick to the bad stuff?

i like the comment above. none of you clearly have a correct understanding of the bible or teen mania.

I’ll answer your question if you can answer mine.

If some people benefit from Teen Mania, does that make it ok that Teen Mania uses tactics that continually hurt many, many people? And that by every psychological measure those tactics are abusive and brainwashing?

Food for thought: Even Jim Jones’ cult was well praised for its homeless ministry…

Yeah, I’ll answer your question! Teen Mania doesn’t use cult like tactics in anything! They simply prepare young people to take on the world and stay firm in their faith. They in no way are out to hurt or destroy anyone! That’s just crazy. Teen Mania has the strict rules they have for a reason and that reason is they want you to live a life honorable to the king of the universe and to bring you closer to him! End of story so no Teen Mania doesn’t hurt any of their interns! Now you can quit avoiding my question.

“Did you ever ask or interview those Alumni who would say that The HA brought them closer to God. Those who say it changed their life for the better. Those who would say that the HA gave them a firm foundation in which to build their relationship with Christ on? Or did you just stick to the bad stuff?”

Anon – So you are saying that Teen Mania does not use strict environmental control, isolation, removal of privacy, uncompromising rules, verbal abuse, physical abuse, removal of personal boundaries, sleep deprivation and fatigue, guilt and fear?

Or are you saying that those things are acceptable in a Christian institution?

Unwavering rules yes they use them but that being said each rule has a biblical reference! Interns are off work and done with core meetings anywhere from 9-10 pm. It’s there choice to stay up and not to get the sleep they need. It is not forced on them unless it is apart of an LTE such as ESOAL. However interns are aware that such LTEs are physically difficult and will be asked to forfeit comforts for a short amount of time! As far as the rest I have never heard, experienced, or seen them exhibt with my experience with them. You still have avoided the question!! I answered you… your turn!

You only addressed 2 items from my list. Were you an intern? I can assure you that hundreds of interns have experienced most, if not all, of the items on this list, plus many more. Those were just off the top of my head.

As far as rules, can you please provode the Biblical reference for the following rules?

1) Corporate exercise at 5am.

2) Curfew at 12:00pm

3) No cross gender dancing.

4) No romantic contact.

5) No video games.

6) No movie viewing on campus except as approved by HA staff.

7) No new nose rings acquired while at the HA.

8) No internet in the dorms.

9) No texting your friends the first few weeks of the HA.

10) Having sugar only one day per week.

I wasn’t aware that those were laid out in Scripture.

Anon – I believe there is a 200 comment limit on these posts, so you’ll have to take this conversation to another post or over email.